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And the same frequencies that were dominant in 2003 are now shutting out the other voices. The Bill Kristols and David Frums are going to awaken from their hibe
by propagandist 5y ago
And the same frequencies that were dominant in 2003 are now shutting out the other voices. The Bill Kristols and David Frums are going to awaken from their hibernation.
It's pointless to argue really--there's 0 hope that we'll do anything differently.
To be clear, there are limited options now wrt to Ukraine. Nobody wants to go to war with Russia. But being hardline and not pragmatic means we'll set ourselves up for similar issues in the next few years and decades.
We strung Ukraine along knowing we wouldn't come to their six when it counted. Honesty has to be the preferable approach.
- EGreg 5y agoThere is only one thing that will secure peace in Europe NATO has to invite Russia to join. Or Russia has to apply. Someone has to go first, but neither country’s nationalist cold war war hawks would do it. That’s why we need moderates in office. Trump should have done it, but it never occurred to him to di that!
- propagandist 5y agoIt's not really an easy situation. There were many complications even with states like Greece, Turkey, and (North) Macedonia. I cannot imagine what Poland and the other formerly occupied states would do if Russia were invited. At the end of the day, NATO was created to counter the USSR. When the USSR collapsed, we had an opening to integrate Russia, and we squandered it. That was the real opportunity.
- jacquesm 5y agoA Russia under a dictator has no place in NATO.
- EGreg 5y agoWould you be willing to risk nuclear armaggeddon for pedantic principles of NATO membership? I’d gladly violate them to literally eliminate a whole host of terrible scenarios once and for all. George W Bush wasn’t a “dictator” but he and his inner circle got us into the war in Iraq which destroyed huge swaths of the middle east. Perhaps in practice, the US President can wreak just as much if not more havoc than a Russian one?
- jacquesm 5y agoAh, the good old 'if you don't do what we want you to do we'll nuke you' argument. Let me know what borders for the renewed USSR you find acceptable. Should they include Poland? Maybe former East Germany or France perhaps?
- EGreg 5y agoNone. Just invite Russia into NATO. Why not? Pride? Cant sell as many weapons anymore? I think many war hawks in the West just want to cut Russia down to size, one less “superpower” to worry about. If it is invited into NATO them the whole raison d’etre of NATO kind of disappears: the big bad enemy is only Russia.
- drran 5y agoDon't worry. Territories of Russian Federation will join the NATO.
- EGreg 5y agoYes, that’s what many people want. To just break up the Russian federation, they hate that it’s so big. Personally, I don’t care too much for imperialism. But we all know how well USA or China would react to secession. USA’s bloodiest was began to “preserve the union”. EU and USSR was actually kind of nice to have a way to let some members secede.
- mopsi 5y agoNATO is not Russia, members don't get included against their will. To become a member, a country must apply and agree to settle disputes using peaceful means. Does not look like Russia has any interest in that.
- EGreg 5y agoIt looks to me like Russia has interest in that. Russia has been bringing up its geopolitical security concerns and bright lines consistently for years and no one in NATO cared enough to “appease” them in any lasting way. It called on Ukraine for years to continue talks w the separatists based on the Minsk agreements but they didn’t. What peaceful means does Russia have available to them? They had a referendum in Crimea where no one was killed — seems far more peaceful than USA or China, the other two “superpowers”. What if USA agrees to settle disputes using peaceful means but then, ya know, just goes and bullies people? It is a founding member of NATO. What should Russia do if Georgia is massacring separatists in Ossetia? (Similar situation to Ukraine.) Just stand by and watch? Should Georgia be inducted into NATO but Russia not? What should anyone do if Pakistan is massacring separtists in Bangladesh? Just curious what is the standard really for when a country should intervene.
- starfallg 5y agoRussia rejected the reforms and path towards NATO membership in the 2000s. They chose to re-establish their geopolitical sphere of influence.
- mongol 5y agoNo, true democracy in Russia is needed. Anything else would not work.
- lobocinza 5y agoThat would implode NATO from inside.