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How is AZOV battalion not a neo-Nazi outfit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion There are photos of the

by Jerry2 5y ago

How is AZOV battalion not a neo-Nazi outfit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion There are photos of them doing the Nazi salute [1] and videos of them flying the Nazi flag on the front lines. Even human rights groups have complained about the arms sales to neo-Nazis [2]. https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-batt... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-isr...

jacquesm 5y ago
And you seriously contend that they are the ones running Ukraine? Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem. But that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.
- Jerry2 5y ago
  >Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem So does the US. But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions. They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy. No, they aren't, that's pure propaganda from Russia, which, ironically, uses international neonazis as a means of undermining other states around the world. https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-in-transnational-white-supremacist-extremism/ https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-...
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      Ironically, in the case of Ukraine, it's the US who turns a blind eye to the neonazis. As they kind of do in Brazil, having helped Bolsonaro to reach the presidency, BTW.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Ironically, in the case of Ukraine, it's the US who turns a blind eye to the neonazis. No, it doesn't. There simply aren't any in positions of significant policy influence. (The US has—although that has changed a little bit since Jan. 6, 2021 for...reasons—historically largely turned a blind eye to the much more extensive influence of neonazis in the US, where they have, among other things, deep and extensive peentration of the internal and external security services, which is one reason the US has been especially vulnerable to their use as international agents of influence by Russia under Putin.)
        rbanffy 5y ago
        > There simply aren't any in positions of significant policy influence. They wouldn't, because it wouldn't solve any problem for them. The current Ukraine government is friendly towards the US and the neonazi militias were doing the job of suppressing insurgents, largely with support from said government. The US had more than a little influence in the replacement of the previous, Russia-friendly government.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions Are you sure about that?
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  It's such a pointless metric too; there are neo-Nazis in just about every country. I wouldn't even be surprised if Djibouti had a couple of weirdos regularly dressing up in SS-uniforms in the weekend.
foxfluff 5y ago
You can find small far-right groups in virtually every country, including the US and many European countries. Talk about them is mere distraction, they are not running the country. And there's little doubt that if a country goes through a violent clash against corrupt government (see euromaidan), such groups would take the opportunity to gain standing. You can draw parallels to capitol hill events, or imagine what groups like Soldiers of Odin (the nordics) would have done had there been protests with bullets. And when your country is invaded by a foreign nation, your army generals are not going to ask about the political opinions of those who are willing to fight for their country. A small group of nazis defending Ukraine from Russian invasion? So what. There will be nationalists standing in any country's army if they get invaded. Talk about nazism is a mere distraction and something Putin's trolls would do. Please don't.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > Talk about nazism is a mere distraction and something Putin's trolls would do. Please don't. It's a bit more complicated than that. Ukraine has neonazi militias that enjoy some level of government support and that have been involved in violent incidents in the past. This, of course, does not justify an invasion by a foreign power. Ukraine currently ranks very low as a functional democracy (we can give them some slack on that, since they've been essentially invaded since 2014). I'm still not sure what's the upside of this for Russia, or for Putin. As the article points out, invasions take months, if not years, of planning. While the decision to stand down can be made at any point, the decision to invade has to wait for all the pieces to be in place. Whatever the end-goal is, it's not Ukraine.
  - drran 5y ago
    Let me quote Wikipedia about Azov regiment: > On 11 August, Azov battalion, backed by Ukrainian paratroopers, captured Marinka from pro-Russian rebels and entered the suburbs of Donetsk clashing with Donetsk People's Republic fighters. So, I assume, the Ukraininan Nazi are killing Donetsk People's Republic fighters? This is THE crime you are talking about?
    - 5y ago
smcl 5y ago
There are also neo-nazis in Russia, USA, Germany, Sweden and basically every country with a white majority population. This doesn't mean they're nazi countries, and it certainly doesn't mean they need to be invaded and liberated.
modo_mario 5y ago
Here's the guy that took leadership of Donetsk when it all started. You may notice his windmill of peace insignia: https://khpg.org/files/img/1394442849.jpg https://khpg.org/files/img/1394442849.jpg Maybe if Putin would stop funding neonazi groups across Europe he'd have any credence on the matter.

by Jerry2 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

And you seriously contend that they are the ones running Ukraine? Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem. But that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.

Jerry2 5y ago
>Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem So does the US. But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions. They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy. No, they aren't, that's pure propaganda from Russia, which, ironically, uses international neonazis as a means of undermining other states around the world. https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-in-transnational-white-supremacist-extremism/ https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-...
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    Ironically, in the case of Ukraine, it's the US who turns a blind eye to the neonazis. As they kind of do in Brazil, having helped Bolsonaro to reach the presidency, BTW.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Ironically, in the case of Ukraine, it's the US who turns a blind eye to the neonazis. No, it doesn't. There simply aren't any in positions of significant policy influence. (The US has—although that has changed a little bit since Jan. 6, 2021 for...reasons—historically largely turned a blind eye to the much more extensive influence of neonazis in the US, where they have, among other things, deep and extensive peentration of the internal and external security services, which is one reason the US has been especially vulnerable to their use as international agents of influence by Russia under Putin.)
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        > There simply aren't any in positions of significant policy influence. They wouldn't, because it wouldn't solve any problem for them. The current Ukraine government is friendly towards the US and the neonazi militias were doing the job of suppressing insurgents, largely with support from said government. The US had more than a little influence in the replacement of the previous, Russia-friendly government.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions Are you sure about that?
Freak_NL 5y ago
It's such a pointless metric too; there are neo-Nazis in just about every country. I wouldn't even be surprised if Djibouti had a couple of weirdos regularly dressing up in SS-uniforms in the weekend.

foxfluff 5y ago

You can find small far-right groups in virtually every country, including the US and many European countries. Talk about them is mere distraction, they are not running the country. And there's little doubt that if a country goes through a violent clash against corrupt government (see euromaidan), such groups would take the opportunity to gain standing. You can draw parallels to capitol hill events, or imagine what groups like Soldiers of Odin (the nordics) would have done had there been protests with bullets. And when your country is invaded by a foreign nation, your army generals are not going to ask about the political opinions of those who are willing to fight for their country. A small group of nazis defending Ukraine from Russian invasion? So what. There will be nationalists standing in any country's army if they get invaded. Talk about nazism is a mere distraction and something Putin's trolls would do. Please don't.

rbanffy 5y ago
> Talk about nazism is a mere distraction and something Putin's trolls would do. Please don't. It's a bit more complicated than that. Ukraine has neonazi militias that enjoy some level of government support and that have been involved in violent incidents in the past. This, of course, does not justify an invasion by a foreign power. Ukraine currently ranks very low as a functional democracy (we can give them some slack on that, since they've been essentially invaded since 2014). I'm still not sure what's the upside of this for Russia, or for Putin. As the article points out, invasions take months, if not years, of planning. While the decision to stand down can be made at any point, the decision to invade has to wait for all the pieces to be in place. Whatever the end-goal is, it's not Ukraine.
- drran 5y ago
  Let me quote Wikipedia about Azov regiment: > On 11 August, Azov battalion, backed by Ukrainian paratroopers, captured Marinka from pro-Russian rebels and entered the suburbs of Donetsk clashing with Donetsk People's Republic fighters. So, I assume, the Ukraininan Nazi are killing Donetsk People's Republic fighters? This is THE crime you are talking about?
  - 5y ago

smcl 5y ago

There are also neo-nazis in Russia, USA, Germany, Sweden and basically every country with a white majority population. This doesn't mean they're nazi countries, and it certainly doesn't mean they need to be invaded and liberated.

modo_mario 5y ago

Here's the guy that took leadership of Donetsk when it all started. You may notice his windmill of peace insignia: https://khpg.org/files/img/1394442849.jpg https://khpg.org/files/img/1394442849.jpg Maybe if Putin would stop funding neonazi groups across Europe he'd have any credence on the matter.