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Great to know. Thank you for sanitizing this discussion and shutting out trolls and apologists (like myself). I'm sure that if Cuba or Venezuela entered a pact

Great to know. Thank you for sanitizing this discussion and shutting out trolls and apologists (like myself). I'm sure that if Cuba or Venezuela entered a pact with Moscow that placed ICBMs on their territory, we would respect their sovereignty the same way. There are a few things I'd like to respond to below but the rate-limit hammer has dropped. What I will ask is that we refrain from calling the brave people who stood against the grain apologists or naive. They warned of the dangers decades ago. We owe them better than that; they were prescient.

torstenvl 5y ago
I have been following this closely and I have not seen anything in news reports or other OSINT that show U.S. ICBMs in Ukraine. Can you provide a source to support your comparison?
- propagandist 5y ago
  I did not claim that was the case. It was a hypothetical to point out that sovereignty is wielded in an argument when it's convenient. We don't care about sovereignty when we're violating it.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    I don't know about you, but I think most Americans are opposed to invading Cuba or Venezuela (especially without any immediate ICBM threat). You are trying to imply a hypocrisy that simply isn't there.
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    So are you now saying "a pact with Moscow that placed ICBMs" on the U.S. border is an inapt comparison? The distinction isn't meaningless. You can't reach the conclusion that "we don't care about sovereignty" if we only violate it in the face of perceived imminent threats.
the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
You do realize that the issue in both cases is Russia right? Russia is not a democracy. If an insane dictator puts up nukes near you it’s a very different situation. Not at all the same thing.
- pySSK 5y ago
  Hate Putin and what he's doing in Ukraine right now, but, - How is Ukraine joining NATO different from Cuba or Mexico joining a military alliance with Russia? - Dictatorship argument is moot since US actively supports many evil dictator and provides them with financial and military support. - Any country is right to be scared of the US as it has invaded/destabilized many countries in the last two decades including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > How is Ukraine joining NATO different from Cuba or Mexico joining a military alliance with Russia? Well, it's different than Cuba doing that in that it never actually happened.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Cuba has had a military alliance with Russia / USSR for decades. Mexico has entirely different problems. Neither of these countries got invaded or had their regime changed by the USA. But I fail to see what this has to do with the Ukraine and the Russian invasion there, which is not theoretical.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Neither of these countries got invaded or had their regime changed by the USA. Cuba did, in fact, get invaded by the US. But not like Russia is doing to Ukraine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
      - jacquesm 5y ago
emptyfile 5y ago
nebukhadnezar 5y ago
It baffles me how some people can completely disregard the Russian aggressive foreign policy. Like in their argument they completely ignore it. But then when push comes to shove and we are shown clear evidence, the only arguments they can find to justify real aggression against a sovereign state is whataboutism.

torstenvl 5y ago

I have been following this closely and I have not seen anything in news reports or other OSINT that show U.S. ICBMs in Ukraine. Can you provide a source to support your comparison?

propagandist 5y ago
I did not claim that was the case. It was a hypothetical to point out that sovereignty is wielded in an argument when it's convenient. We don't care about sovereignty when we're violating it.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  I don't know about you, but I think most Americans are opposed to invading Cuba or Venezuela (especially without any immediate ICBM threat). You are trying to imply a hypocrisy that simply isn't there.
- torstenvl 5y ago
  So are you now saying "a pact with Moscow that placed ICBMs" on the U.S. border is an inapt comparison? The distinction isn't meaningless. You can't reach the conclusion that "we don't care about sovereignty" if we only violate it in the face of perceived imminent threats.

the_mitsuhiko 5y ago

You do realize that the issue in both cases is Russia right? Russia is not a democracy. If an insane dictator puts up nukes near you it’s a very different situation. Not at all the same thing.

pySSK 5y ago
Hate Putin and what he's doing in Ukraine right now, but, - How is Ukraine joining NATO different from Cuba or Mexico joining a military alliance with Russia? - Dictatorship argument is moot since US actively supports many evil dictator and provides them with financial and military support. - Any country is right to be scared of the US as it has invaded/destabilized many countries in the last two decades including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > How is Ukraine joining NATO different from Cuba or Mexico joining a military alliance with Russia? Well, it's different than Cuba doing that in that it never actually happened.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Cuba has had a military alliance with Russia / USSR for decades. Mexico has entirely different problems. Neither of these countries got invaded or had their regime changed by the USA. But I fail to see what this has to do with the Ukraine and the Russian invasion there, which is not theoretical.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Neither of these countries got invaded or had their regime changed by the USA. Cuba did, in fact, get invaded by the US. But not like Russia is doing to Ukraine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
    - jacquesm 5y ago

emptyfile 5y ago

nebukhadnezar 5y ago

It baffles me how some people can completely disregard the Russian aggressive foreign policy. Like in their argument they completely ignore it. But then when push comes to shove and we are shown clear evidence, the only arguments they can find to justify real aggression against a sovereign state is whataboutism.