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NATO expansion was not driven by NATO's 21st century power aspirations, but rather driven by Baltic nations that suffered tremendously under Soviet rule. No one

by dvt 5y ago

NATO expansion was not driven by NATO's 21st century power aspirations, but rather driven by Baltic nations that suffered tremendously under Soviet rule. No one in Eastern Europe seriously believes Russia is only aggressive and bellicose due to Putin. It has a long and sordid history of abuse dating back at least a century. So it makes sense that Poland is terrified, along with Romania, Latvia, Estonia, etc. It's a very "US-centric" video, and the comparison to the Monroe Doctine is imo a false equivalency. Russia is not even the Soviet Union, let alone the US. Russia isn't a match militarily to NATO, and it's not even a match economically to the EU. It has nukes and oil, so it's a thug and a bully. If it was any other nation, it would be wiped off the face of the planet.

mhitza 5y ago
Romania isn't terrified of Russia. The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral, from the neutral-positive way we saw them in the 90s, when we were still relying heavily on their bootleg electronics. Romania joined NATO way back as it saw it as a way to get closer to the west and ultimately into EU. Not because of Russia but because the bad state of the local economy (and associated poverty) lead by incompetent, post revolution, ex-communist party, people. That couldn't be improved without outside investment, guidance, and trade partners.
- dvt 5y ago
  > Romania isn't terrified of Russia. Russophobia is a relatively recent fear in the general population caused by years of media propaganda. Absolutely not true[1]. Soviet Russian-Romanian friction dates as back as early as the 70s, and let's not even talk about WW2. Soviets raping and pillaging Transylvania is well documented. [1] https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-soviet-romanian-clash-over-history-identity-and-dominion https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-soviet-romanian...
  - mhitza 5y ago
    Romania had friction with many states for many reasons. I'm sure there was raping and pillaging during war in Romania, by the Russian army, just like I hear about rape happening in all wars. My grandparents stories around WW2 depicted Russia in a good light, thus experience might vary. Where we were taught to have beef with Russia, was on the large amount of gold/valuables we shipped there during WW2 for "safe keeping" and which were never returned back to us. The 90s romanian propaganda was against the west in general, and Hungary in particular. You see, even if Hungarians were the first to bring large convoys of humanitarian help in our country after our revolution, the politicians made sure to make Hungary a boogeyman that is trying to steal Transylvania from us and support separatist movement in majority ethnic hungarian regions. It's not a black and white kind of thing, and it seems that trade relationships also shape up the perception of those trading partners. Don't get me wrong, people's perception of Putin and his actions are mostly negative (we have our fair share of people that cling to the extremes).
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Maybe go and have a chat with your grandparents of what life was like as a vassal state of the Russians, the Ceaușescu years are something that Romania is effectively still recovering from.
      - mhitza 5y ago
        They've been dead for many years now. You tell me what life was like as a vassal state of Russia. Opinion on life during communism is very much a mixed bag. Depends who you ask. I don't know why people keep painting Romanian communism as a black&white kind of issue.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        I wrote a bit about this: https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-western-kid-living-in-communist-poland/ https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-western-kid-living-in-communis... Imagine your friends informing on you to the secret police either because of ideological reasons, or simply because they want to get ahead in life and you're a convenient stepping stone. Imagine empty stores. Imagine family members taken in for 'questioning' never to be heard from again. Imagine winters without fuel. And so on... Really, the life in the countries that were plundered to power the failing economy of the USSR was pretty harsh, especially if you were smart and not part of the party. FWIW I love Romania, have lived in Bucharest for two years and have friends and family there. Enjoy your freedom, it was paid for in blood.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    And you're forgetting the whole Bessarabia thing - Russia forced Romania to cede Bessarabia, them had to return it, then the Soviets did the same, and after the Soviet Union fell leftover Russians separated and blocked any discussion on the resulting country of Moldova from trying to merge back into Romania ( not saying everyone wants this, but Transistria blocked even the possibility of that).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- foxfluff 5y ago
  > The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral Yeah, people who didn't live through the cold war and didn't suffer aggression or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way. I guarantee that a lot of the 90s kids are now having second thoughts and start to think more like the older population.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    FWIW, as a Polish twenty-something, I rather expected Russia to mellow out as it becomes more democratic over time. As of approximately the time of the Crimean invasion, that opinion has shifted a great deal.
    - env123 5y ago
      It should have, but the west still kept NATO. They could have simply been more diplomatic with Russia when it was at its weakest in the 90's after the fall of the Soviet Union, but the cynicism was still there
      - selfhoster11 5y ago
        No doubt Russia wasn't treated how it should have been, post Cold War. But staying that's a justification of their behaviour is like saying that Germany was justified in their 1930s behaviour just because it was mistreated post WW 1. Overall, I'm happy that Poland is a NATO member. At least it adds another deterrent (or failing that, a speed bump) in the way of a Russian invasion. Were NATO not to exist, and Russia to re-awaken it's conqueror instincts at some point, we'd be screwed yet again.
  - mhitza 5y ago
    I don't think the Romanian population of the 80s cared about the cold war. In a time when leader worship propaganda was at its peak (thanks North Korea for inspiring Ceausescu), food scarcity, decaying state services/infrastructure, and dissent suppression in full force. > or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way. I agree, awareness and proximity to direct effects give you a different perspective. Based on my experience, I can tell you that those 90s kids are having second thoughts on the EU&West this time around. Might be Russian propaganda derived, but EU skepticism is on the rise in that same age group, especially for those that live in the country.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  I take issue with the word "Russophobia". There is no reason to think that fearing Russia(n government's actions) is irrational, given its track record.
  - mhitza 5y ago
    You're right, I have removed that line. Phobia is a irrational fear of something, but it sounded catchy to use that word when I wrote my comment.

by dvt 5y ago

mhitza 5y ago

Romania isn't terrified of Russia. The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral, from the neutral-positive way we saw them in the 90s, when we were still relying heavily on their bootleg electronics. Romania joined NATO way back as it saw it as a way to get closer to the west and ultimately into EU. Not because of Russia but because the bad state of the local economy (and associated poverty) lead by incompetent, post revolution, ex-communist party, people. That couldn't be improved without outside investment, guidance, and trade partners.

dvt 5y ago
> Romania isn't terrified of Russia. Russophobia is a relatively recent fear in the general population caused by years of media propaganda. Absolutely not true[1]. Soviet Russian-Romanian friction dates as back as early as the 70s, and let's not even talk about WW2. Soviets raping and pillaging Transylvania is well documented. [1] https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-soviet-romanian-clash-over-history-identity-and-dominion https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-soviet-romanian...
- mhitza 5y ago
  Romania had friction with many states for many reasons. I'm sure there was raping and pillaging during war in Romania, by the Russian army, just like I hear about rape happening in all wars. My grandparents stories around WW2 depicted Russia in a good light, thus experience might vary. Where we were taught to have beef with Russia, was on the large amount of gold/valuables we shipped there during WW2 for "safe keeping" and which were never returned back to us. The 90s romanian propaganda was against the west in general, and Hungary in particular. You see, even if Hungarians were the first to bring large convoys of humanitarian help in our country after our revolution, the politicians made sure to make Hungary a boogeyman that is trying to steal Transylvania from us and support separatist movement in majority ethnic hungarian regions. It's not a black and white kind of thing, and it seems that trade relationships also shape up the perception of those trading partners. Don't get me wrong, people's perception of Putin and his actions are mostly negative (we have our fair share of people that cling to the extremes).
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Maybe go and have a chat with your grandparents of what life was like as a vassal state of the Russians, the Ceaușescu years are something that Romania is effectively still recovering from.
    - mhitza 5y ago
      They've been dead for many years now. You tell me what life was like as a vassal state of Russia. Opinion on life during communism is very much a mixed bag. Depends who you ask. I don't know why people keep painting Romanian communism as a black&white kind of issue.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        I wrote a bit about this: https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-western-kid-living-in-communist-poland/ https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-western-kid-living-in-communis... Imagine your friends informing on you to the secret police either because of ideological reasons, or simply because they want to get ahead in life and you're a convenient stepping stone. Imagine empty stores. Imagine family members taken in for 'questioning' never to be heard from again. Imagine winters without fuel. And so on... Really, the life in the countries that were plundered to power the failing economy of the USSR was pretty harsh, especially if you were smart and not part of the party. FWIW I love Romania, have lived in Bucharest for two years and have friends and family there. Enjoy your freedom, it was paid for in blood.
- sofixa 5y ago
  And you're forgetting the whole Bessarabia thing - Russia forced Romania to cede Bessarabia, them had to return it, then the Soviets did the same, and after the Soviet Union fell leftover Russians separated and blocked any discussion on the resulting country of Moldova from trying to merge back into Romania ( not saying everyone wants this, but Transistria blocked even the possibility of that).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
foxfluff 5y ago
> The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral Yeah, people who didn't live through the cold war and didn't suffer aggression or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way. I guarantee that a lot of the 90s kids are now having second thoughts and start to think more like the older population.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  FWIW, as a Polish twenty-something, I rather expected Russia to mellow out as it becomes more democratic over time. As of approximately the time of the Crimean invasion, that opinion has shifted a great deal.
  - env123 5y ago
    It should have, but the west still kept NATO. They could have simply been more diplomatic with Russia when it was at its weakest in the 90's after the fall of the Soviet Union, but the cynicism was still there
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      No doubt Russia wasn't treated how it should have been, post Cold War. But staying that's a justification of their behaviour is like saying that Germany was justified in their 1930s behaviour just because it was mistreated post WW 1. Overall, I'm happy that Poland is a NATO member. At least it adds another deterrent (or failing that, a speed bump) in the way of a Russian invasion. Were NATO not to exist, and Russia to re-awaken it's conqueror instincts at some point, we'd be screwed yet again.
- mhitza 5y ago
  I don't think the Romanian population of the 80s cared about the cold war. In a time when leader worship propaganda was at its peak (thanks North Korea for inspiring Ceausescu), food scarcity, decaying state services/infrastructure, and dissent suppression in full force. > or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way. I agree, awareness and proximity to direct effects give you a different perspective. Based on my experience, I can tell you that those 90s kids are having second thoughts on the EU&West this time around. Might be Russian propaganda derived, but EU skepticism is on the rise in that same age group, especially for those that live in the country.
selfhoster11 5y ago
I take issue with the word "Russophobia". There is no reason to think that fearing Russia(n government's actions) is irrational, given its track record.
- mhitza 5y ago
  You're right, I have removed that line. Phobia is a irrational fear of something, but it sounded catchy to use that word when I wrote my comment.