4 ms·

> member states like Germany would have vetoed [Ukraine’s bid for NATO membership] Why is this often mentioned? What is Germany’s rationale and is this still a

by hbarka 5y ago

> member states like Germany would have vetoed [Ukraine’s bid for NATO membership] Why is this often mentioned? What is Germany’s rationale and is this still a certainty? Perhaps these comments were more closely related to Schröder (because gas pipeline) but certainly a different generation now. edit: France and Germany were the two opposed countries.

KronisLV 5y ago
Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. What used to be East Germany then is Germany now. It's not exactly a crazy development.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    That's actually a fair point, though somehow one also might expect the country to distance itself from certain aspects of its past, seeing how it's been a bit more progressive leaning. At least that's the impression that i've gotten from the past decade of news, at least up until talks of pipelines and whatnot started.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Yes, but east germany was not willingly on the eastern block (nor was poland, czech, ...) But there are indeed some nostalgics here, who like Putin and the eastern empire.
- pySSK 5y ago
  > Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. Two reasons: 1. Germany depends on Russia for gas, and the two countries have business and economic ties 2. Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine (44m pop., and would be second poorest in EU after Greece. Pop. of Germany and France: 83m, 67m respectively).
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine" It was about NATO, not EU membership.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  German here. There are a multitude of reasons... forgive me all the German sources please, but I don't really have the time to dig up English sources of the same quality. First of all is the close history that the Social Democrats have with Russia, dating back to former Chancellor Willy Brandt and the Neue Ostpolitik, and renewed by the 1998-2006 former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder who initiated the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline and infamously worked as a high-profile lobbyist for Gazprom after his period and is rumored to be a close personal friend of Vladimir Putin for years now. Then we have the history of the 1968-era hippies, the peace movement and large parts of the radical left, which has to this day strong ties to the Green Party, the Left Party (which is the successor of the former GDR's ruling SED) and partially also to the Social Democrat Party. Many of my comrades are still stuck in the Cold War anti-imperialist mindset (where only the Western / NATO sphere is seen as an aggressor) and fail to see that both modern China and Russia are imperialist agents on their own. Hopefully the events of the last few days will wake up some of them, though. And finally, the entire gas clusterfuck. 1) A lot of residential heating - not just in Germany by the way, but also across wide parts of Eastern Europe and Italy - depends on either gas or oil, as electric heating is ridiculously expensive (at >30 ct/kWh!). 2) electricity. The Conservative/Christian Democrat CDU, whose Chancellor Merkel ruled for the last 16 years before finally getting booted out of office last year, took pride in demolishing the domestic solar and wind turbine industry (the former by cutting subsidies which was followed by Chinese dumping taking over the market, the latter by imposing ridiculous zoning requirements [1]) and was happily accepting "donations" (aka legal bribery) from the fossil fuel industry, and their Bavarian sister party CSU (as well as a number of various local NIMBY movements, called "Bürgerinitiativen") keeps throwing impediments against high-power electric lines to expand the electric grid so that it can distribute Nothern German-generated wind power to the South (Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg). Combined with the phase-out of coal-fired plants and nuclear plants, gas peakers have risen in importance [2]. 3) We don't have many alternatives as a continent to source gas from, other than pipelines. There are no LNG import terminals in Germany [3], we have to rely on the import capacity of the Netherlands, France and Belgium [4]. At the same time, the Dutch gas field at Groningen is suffering from earthquakes following the gas extraction [5], Norway doesn't have much spare capacity [6] and the UK only has enough gas reserves to make 42% of their own demand [7], not to mention the Brexit aftermath which included the UK getting booted off the EU energy market. 4) We have a lot of industry (especially petro-chemical and metal) relying on gas for energy and as a raw material. About a third of industrial energy consumption is gas-based [8]. We are in a "perfect storm" situation, and now over 40 years of lackluster politics across the board are crashing down on our head. [1]: https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/landespolitik/windraeder-abstand-anhoerung-gesetz-100.html https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/landespolitik/windraeder-abs... [2]: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/deutschland-braucht-neue-gaskraftwerke-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/deutschland-braucht-neu... [3]: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/knappe-gaslieferungen-aus-russland-braucht-es-haefen-fuer-den-fluessiggas-import/27986938.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/knappe-gaslieferungen... [4]: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/lng-terminal-deutschland-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/lng-termina... [5]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gasfoerderung-in-den-niederlanden-erdbeben-in-der-provinz-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gasfoerderung-in-den-niederla... [6]: https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/norwegen-regierungschef-store-russland-gas-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/norwegen-regierungsch... [7]: https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2021-09/gaspreis-grossbritannien-energiekrise-kohlendioxid-brexit https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2021-09/gaspreis-grossbritann... [8]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2021/12/PD21_551_435.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2021/12...
- herbst 5y ago
  There are no sides for some. Swiss media is portraing all involved parts as crazy war lords. There is no Russia is bad, NATO is just saving the day narrative here.
- ant6n 5y ago
  Germans have „historical responsibility“ towards Russia. (But not so much towards Ukraine, somehow although arguably WWII was pretty bad there too). Also dependence on natural gas.
csunbird 5y ago
Playing both sides. That is how you do diplomacy.
DocTomoe 5y ago
The German economy is dependant on Russian gas, regardless of who is currently leading the country. Also take into account that until recently, Russia has been considered a reliable business partner in Germany, to the point that many Germans considered a russo-german partnership to be more advantageous than the current transatlantic one. While support for that idea waned in popularity a little after the Crimea takeover, some, now more on the political fringes, still do today.

by hbarka 5y ago

KronisLV 5y ago

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. What used to be East Germany then is Germany now. It's not exactly a crazy development.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  That's actually a fair point, though somehow one also might expect the country to distance itself from certain aspects of its past, seeing how it's been a bit more progressive leaning. At least that's the impression that i've gotten from the past decade of news, at least up until talks of pipelines and whatnot started.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Yes, but east germany was not willingly on the eastern block (nor was poland, czech, ...) But there are indeed some nostalgics here, who like Putin and the eastern empire.
pySSK 5y ago
> Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. Two reasons: 1. Germany depends on Russia for gas, and the two countries have business and economic ties 2. Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine (44m pop., and would be second poorest in EU after Greece. Pop. of Germany and France: 83m, 67m respectively).
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine" It was about NATO, not EU membership.
mschuster91 5y ago
German here. There are a multitude of reasons... forgive me all the German sources please, but I don't really have the time to dig up English sources of the same quality. First of all is the close history that the Social Democrats have with Russia, dating back to former Chancellor Willy Brandt and the Neue Ostpolitik, and renewed by the 1998-2006 former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder who initiated the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline and infamously worked as a high-profile lobbyist for Gazprom after his period and is rumored to be a close personal friend of Vladimir Putin for years now. Then we have the history of the 1968-era hippies, the peace movement and large parts of the radical left, which has to this day strong ties to the Green Party, the Left Party (which is the successor of the former GDR's ruling SED) and partially also to the Social Democrat Party. Many of my comrades are still stuck in the Cold War anti-imperialist mindset (where only the Western / NATO sphere is seen as an aggressor) and fail to see that both modern China and Russia are imperialist agents on their own. Hopefully the events of the last few days will wake up some of them, though. And finally, the entire gas clusterfuck. 1) A lot of residential heating - not just in Germany by the way, but also across wide parts of Eastern Europe and Italy - depends on either gas or oil, as electric heating is ridiculously expensive (at >30 ct/kWh!). 2) electricity. The Conservative/Christian Democrat CDU, whose Chancellor Merkel ruled for the last 16 years before finally getting booted out of office last year, took pride in demolishing the domestic solar and wind turbine industry (the former by cutting subsidies which was followed by Chinese dumping taking over the market, the latter by imposing ridiculous zoning requirements [1]) and was happily accepting "donations" (aka legal bribery) from the fossil fuel industry, and their Bavarian sister party CSU (as well as a number of various local NIMBY movements, called "Bürgerinitiativen") keeps throwing impediments against high-power electric lines to expand the electric grid so that it can distribute Nothern German-generated wind power to the South (Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg). Combined with the phase-out of coal-fired plants and nuclear plants, gas peakers have risen in importance [2]. 3) We don't have many alternatives as a continent to source gas from, other than pipelines. There are no LNG import terminals in Germany [3], we have to rely on the import capacity of the Netherlands, France and Belgium [4]. At the same time, the Dutch gas field at Groningen is suffering from earthquakes following the gas extraction [5], Norway doesn't have much spare capacity [6] and the UK only has enough gas reserves to make 42% of their own demand [7], not to mention the Brexit aftermath which included the UK getting booted off the EU energy market. 4) We have a lot of industry (especially petro-chemical and metal) relying on gas for energy and as a raw material. About a third of industrial energy consumption is gas-based [8]. We are in a "perfect storm" situation, and now over 40 years of lackluster politics across the board are crashing down on our head. [1]: https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/landespolitik/windraeder-abstand-anhoerung-gesetz-100.html https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/landespolitik/windraeder-abs... [2]: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/deutschland-braucht-neue-gaskraftwerke-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/deutschland-braucht-neu... [3]: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/knappe-gaslieferungen-aus-russland-braucht-es-haefen-fuer-den-fluessiggas-import/27986938.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/knappe-gaslieferungen... [4]: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/lng-terminal-deutschland-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/lng-termina... [5]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gasfoerderung-in-den-niederlanden-erdbeben-in-der-provinz-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gasfoerderung-in-den-niederla... [6]: https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/norwegen-regierungschef-store-russland-gas-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/norwegen-regierungsch... [7]: https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2021-09/gaspreis-grossbritannien-energiekrise-kohlendioxid-brexit https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2021-09/gaspreis-grossbritann... [8]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2021/12/PD21_551_435.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2021/12...
herbst 5y ago
There are no sides for some. Swiss media is portraing all involved parts as crazy war lords. There is no Russia is bad, NATO is just saving the day narrative here.
ant6n 5y ago
Germans have „historical responsibility“ towards Russia. (But not so much towards Ukraine, somehow although arguably WWII was pretty bad there too). Also dependence on natural gas.

csunbird 5y ago

Playing both sides. That is how you do diplomacy.

DocTomoe 5y ago

The German economy is dependant on Russian gas, regardless of who is currently leading the country. Also take into account that until recently, Russia has been considered a reliable business partner in Germany, to the point that many Germans considered a russo-german partnership to be more advantageous than the current transatlantic one. While support for that idea waned in popularity a little after the Crimea takeover, some, now more on the political fringes, still do today.