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I'm a little confused. The article argues that Ukraine is not a Nazi country (for clarity: I agree with it) and the argument is "the president of Ukraine is Jew

by ordu 5y ago

I'm a little confused. The article argues that Ukraine is not a Nazi country (for clarity: I agree with it) and the argument is "the president of Ukraine is Jew". But it does't contradict to Putin. I'm not sure where my confusion comes from, but it seems to me it is because of different ideas named by the same word. It seems to me that the author defines Nazi as anti-Jewish, while Putin has in mind more broad definition "anti-ethnos, for any ethnos". Being Russian I'm sure that my understanding of Putin is correct. Putin talks that Ukraine supposedly anti-Russian, prosecutes and kills Russians living in Ukraine, dreams of genocide of Russians and so on. So the argument of the article seems to be a non-sequitur. But if we defined Nazi as anti-Jewish that the argument would cease to be a non sequitur, it would be completely logical and conviencing. But maybe I do not understand something else? I'd like to clarify one more time, because it is a hot political topic. I do not think that Ukraine is anti-Russian-ethnos. I'm sure it is now strongly anti-Putin and even anti-Russian Federation, and rightly so. So regardless of what definition of Nazism we used, Putin declaration is a lie.

rapsey 5y ago
The article in general completely ignores the US role in all of this. The entire saga happened with the US interference in the last ukranian revolution. https://original.antiwar.com/rick_sterling/2022/02/24/how-the-us-instigated-the-ukraine-crisis/ https://original.antiwar.com/rick_sterling/2022/02/24/how-th...
- Bronze_Colossus 5y ago
  I disagree with the article you posted in almost its entirely. > president, Viktor Yanukovich, was forced to flee for his life. What Ukraine experienced in 2014 was not a coup. The Ukrainian parliament deposed him after he left the country and after the parliament had order the security forces to stand down and leave the capital. I could go on how factually and biased that article is. What's next? You're gonna claim Cuba is the fault of the Soviet union?
  - Moru 5y ago
    It's called propaganda and it actually works I'm affraid.
- villaaston1 5y ago
  I’m not sure if this is the best source to read about the situation? The “Facts” listed are backed up by links to Russia Today videos on YouTube, or nothing at all.
- pqwEfkvjs 5y ago
  No, it didn't.
hef19898 5y ago
My question is, why are we even seriously discussing Putin's claim that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis? If there ever was clear propaganda BS, there it is. I get it so why he's using it. But why on Earth is anyone buying into it?
- rapsey 5y ago
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    I've seen plenty of articles in western media about Ukrainian neonazis. You linked to one of those articles yourself.
- ordu 5y ago
  I agree that it is irrelevant. It is more like a linguistic research from my part. If the author understand Nazism in a different manner then I was taught in school, then I'd better pick it up, or I would misunderstand all such arguments. > But why on Earth is anyone buying into it? Russians buy it, because their propaganda shows them enough "facts" of Ukrainians attack Russians. Outside of Russia it seems to me no one buys it.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    I'm German, so I do have obviously a view on Nazism. I was never taught the USSRs perspective on WW2 so. I think mainly because of the Cold War propaganda, we skipped ( and I had a really great history teacher at that time) over the Russian effort. Turns out now, that this lack of education, for lack of a better term, might be an issue. So, sincere question, what is the Russian understanding of Nazism?
    - ordu 5y ago
      I think it is close to a modern understanding of rasism, though an extreme variant: one race to rule them all. To rule or to genocide. Hitler was not so much against Jews he was against non-Aryan people, the group that included Jews and Russians and African, and Asian, and almost everyone. I'm not sure is it a good definition or not, but it is how it is. I vaguely suspect that this definition even may be offensive to Jews (judging by a recent Ruby Goldberg blooper), but honestly I have no intention to be offensive, just describing how it is. And trying to understand the other point of view.
prox 5y ago
Read this article (good site by the way, much better than watching news) https://www.csis.org/features/kremlin-playbook-3 https://www.csis.org/features/kremlin-playbook-3 It will click why this rhetoric is used by him and also the western (extreme) right (including Trump)
jacquesm 5y ago
The NAZI bit was a lie by Putin, the fact that their president is a Jew should dispel any doubt about that, so it does contradict Putin. > while Putin has in mind more broad definition "anti-ethnos, for any ethnos" But: the Ukrainian government never was against any ethnic group. That is what Putin would like you to believe, but it simply isn't true. Just like the Latvian government isn't against the ethnic Russians living in Latvia (a very large fraction of the people in Latvia have Russian roots).
- Jerry2 5y ago
  How is AZOV battalion not a neo-Nazi outfit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion There are photos of them doing the Nazi salute [1] and videos of them flying the Nazi flag on the front lines. Even human rights groups have complained about the arms sales to neo-Nazis [2]. https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-batt... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-isr...
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    And you seriously contend that they are the ones running Ukraine? Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem. But that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.
    - Jerry2 5y ago
      >Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem So does the US. But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions. They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy. No, they aren't, that's pure propaganda from Russia, which, ironically, uses international neonazis as a means of undermining other states around the world. https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-in-transnational-white-supremacist-extremism/ https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-...
bfung 5y ago
One of the features is Nazism is antisemitism, basically hating the Jewish people irrationally. So yes, being a Nazi is basically anti-Jewish. Ukraine is not like the Nazi’s since their leader is Jewish, the opposite of being a Nazi. Hence the Putin lie. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
axiomsEnd 5y ago
Isn't this more about playining on historical sentiments? In Polish-speaking internet russian trolls won't shut up about UPA and Wołyń massacre.
- ordu 5y ago
  Yes, it is about playing on historical sentiments. Putin always do it. And I'm ashamed and sorry to hear that it is not confined to a Russian-speaking world but spills to neighbours.
paganel 5y ago
On our (West's) side there were definitely lots os mistakes that were made during the last few years. The most important one is the promise given to Ukraine that it will enter NATO and the EU if only given enough time for implementation details, totally ignoring the needs and apprehensions of Russia next door. Which might be ok in an ideal world, but fact of the matter is that international relations are as far from an "ideal world" as one can imagine, they're one of the last, true bastions of open hobbes-ianism when it comes to politics and human relations. We needed more realists, more people willing to see things as they really were, and less idealists, less people saying things like "how can Putin not accept the sovereignty of other countries? Doesn't he know that breaks international law?" Also, one must have the feeling that Ukraine has been a little let down by the EU and NATO in all this, especially by the EU. I can understand at this point why NATO won't get involved more than it has (I think they now see the possibility of Putin starting WW3 on the flimsiest of pretences), but imo the EU could have done so much more, at least when it comes to direct economic assistance given to Ukraine and to real economic sanctions imposed on Russia. Just two days ago the Belgians and Italians were still bickering [1] over not imposing sanctions on Russian oligarchs related to the diamond market (very strong in Belgium) and the luxury market (very strong in Italy). When you put in the balance the selling of luxury bags to some Russian oligarchs' wives vs the fate of a nation to whom you had promised the world then something is wrong, really wrong (hopefully, once the war really started a day after that those petty negotiations were put on hold) Source: me, living in a NATO and EU member country bordering Ukraine [1] https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1496758467943866374 https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1496758467943866374
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > the promise given to Ukraine that it will enter NATO and the EU Your comment history approaches deliberate misinformation. This is an example. NATO admission was never promised. The consultation process was all but abandoned over a decade ago, before Putin rolled into Crimea.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    This was revised by NATO in 2021 and more substantial commitments were made. NATO reaffirmed that “Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP)", which is the most traction on the topic since 2008. In 2016, Ukraine was granted the Comprehensive Assistance Package (CAP), comprising the advisory mission at the NATO Representation to Ukraine as well as 16 capacity-building programmes and Trust Funds. And in 2018, Ukraine was officially given an aspiring member status. I found this article to be informative: https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nato-summit-triumph-or-defeat-for-ukraine/ https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nat...

by ordu 5y ago

rapsey 5y ago

The article in general completely ignores the US role in all of this. The entire saga happened with the US interference in the last ukranian revolution. https://original.antiwar.com/rick_sterling/2022/02/24/how-the-us-instigated-the-ukraine-crisis/ https://original.antiwar.com/rick_sterling/2022/02/24/how-th...

Bronze_Colossus 5y ago
I disagree with the article you posted in almost its entirely. > president, Viktor Yanukovich, was forced to flee for his life. What Ukraine experienced in 2014 was not a coup. The Ukrainian parliament deposed him after he left the country and after the parliament had order the security forces to stand down and leave the capital. I could go on how factually and biased that article is. What's next? You're gonna claim Cuba is the fault of the Soviet union?
- Moru 5y ago
  It's called propaganda and it actually works I'm affraid.
villaaston1 5y ago
I’m not sure if this is the best source to read about the situation? The “Facts” listed are backed up by links to Russia Today videos on YouTube, or nothing at all.
pqwEfkvjs 5y ago
No, it didn't.

hef19898 5y ago

My question is, why are we even seriously discussing Putin's claim that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis? If there ever was clear propaganda BS, there it is. I get it so why he's using it. But why on Earth is anyone buying into it?

rapsey 5y ago
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  I've seen plenty of articles in western media about Ukrainian neonazis. You linked to one of those articles yourself.
ordu 5y ago
I agree that it is irrelevant. It is more like a linguistic research from my part. If the author understand Nazism in a different manner then I was taught in school, then I'd better pick it up, or I would misunderstand all such arguments. > But why on Earth is anyone buying into it? Russians buy it, because their propaganda shows them enough "facts" of Ukrainians attack Russians. Outside of Russia it seems to me no one buys it.
- hef19898 5y ago
  I'm German, so I do have obviously a view on Nazism. I was never taught the USSRs perspective on WW2 so. I think mainly because of the Cold War propaganda, we skipped ( and I had a really great history teacher at that time) over the Russian effort. Turns out now, that this lack of education, for lack of a better term, might be an issue. So, sincere question, what is the Russian understanding of Nazism?
  - ordu 5y ago
    I think it is close to a modern understanding of rasism, though an extreme variant: one race to rule them all. To rule or to genocide. Hitler was not so much against Jews he was against non-Aryan people, the group that included Jews and Russians and African, and Asian, and almost everyone. I'm not sure is it a good definition or not, but it is how it is. I vaguely suspect that this definition even may be offensive to Jews (judging by a recent Ruby Goldberg blooper), but honestly I have no intention to be offensive, just describing how it is. And trying to understand the other point of view.

prox 5y ago

Read this article (good site by the way, much better than watching news) https://www.csis.org/features/kremlin-playbook-3 https://www.csis.org/features/kremlin-playbook-3 It will click why this rhetoric is used by him and also the western (extreme) right (including Trump)

jacquesm 5y ago

The NAZI bit was a lie by Putin, the fact that their president is a Jew should dispel any doubt about that, so it does contradict Putin. > while Putin has in mind more broad definition "anti-ethnos, for any ethnos" But: the Ukrainian government never was against any ethnic group. That is what Putin would like you to believe, but it simply isn't true. Just like the Latvian government isn't against the ethnic Russians living in Latvia (a very large fraction of the people in Latvia have Russian roots).

Jerry2 5y ago
How is AZOV battalion not a neo-Nazi outfit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion There are photos of them doing the Nazi salute [1] and videos of them flying the Nazi flag on the front lines. Even human rights groups have complained about the arms sales to neo-Nazis [2]. https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html https://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-batt... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-isr...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  And you seriously contend that they are the ones running Ukraine? Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem. But that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.
  - Jerry2 5y ago
    >Both Russia, Ukraine and Serbia have a Neo Nazi problem So does the US. But in the US, neo-Nazis are not in our government, the Congress and in top military positions. They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > They are extremely powerful in the Ukraine and are dictating policy. No, they aren't, that's pure propaganda from Russia, which, ironically, uses international neonazis as a means of undermining other states around the world. https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-in-transnational-white-supremacist-extremism/ https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-...

bfung 5y ago

One of the features is Nazism is antisemitism, basically hating the Jewish people irrationally. So yes, being a Nazi is basically anti-Jewish. Ukraine is not like the Nazi’s since their leader is Jewish, the opposite of being a Nazi. Hence the Putin lie. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

axiomsEnd 5y ago

Isn't this more about playining on historical sentiments? In Polish-speaking internet russian trolls won't shut up about UPA and Wołyń massacre.

ordu 5y ago
Yes, it is about playing on historical sentiments. Putin always do it. And I'm ashamed and sorry to hear that it is not confined to a Russian-speaking world but spills to neighbours.

paganel 5y ago

On our (West's) side there were definitely lots os mistakes that were made during the last few years. The most important one is the promise given to Ukraine that it will enter NATO and the EU if only given enough time for implementation details, totally ignoring the needs and apprehensions of Russia next door. Which might be ok in an ideal world, but fact of the matter is that international relations are as far from an "ideal world" as one can imagine, they're one of the last, true bastions of open hobbes-ianism when it comes to politics and human relations. We needed more realists, more people willing to see things as they really were, and less idealists, less people saying things like "how can Putin not accept the sovereignty of other countries? Doesn't he know that breaks international law?" Also, one must have the feeling that Ukraine has been a little let down by the EU and NATO in all this, especially by the EU. I can understand at this point why NATO won't get involved more than it has (I think they now see the possibility of Putin starting WW3 on the flimsiest of pretences), but imo the EU could have done so much more, at least when it comes to direct economic assistance given to Ukraine and to real economic sanctions imposed on Russia. Just two days ago the Belgians and Italians were still bickering [1] over not imposing sanctions on Russian oligarchs related to the diamond market (very strong in Belgium) and the luxury market (very strong in Italy). When you put in the balance the selling of luxury bags to some Russian oligarchs' wives vs the fate of a nation to whom you had promised the world then something is wrong, really wrong (hopefully, once the war really started a day after that those petty negotiations were put on hold) Source: me, living in a NATO and EU member country bordering Ukraine [1] https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1496758467943866374 https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1496758467943866374

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> the promise given to Ukraine that it will enter NATO and the EU Your comment history approaches deliberate misinformation. This is an example. NATO admission was never promised. The consultation process was all but abandoned over a decade ago, before Putin rolled into Crimea.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  This was revised by NATO in 2021 and more substantial commitments were made. NATO reaffirmed that “Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP)", which is the most traction on the topic since 2008. In 2016, Ukraine was granted the Comprehensive Assistance Package (CAP), comprising the advisory mission at the NATO Representation to Ukraine as well as 16 capacity-building programmes and Trust Funds. And in 2018, Ukraine was officially given an aspiring member status. I found this article to be informative: https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nato-summit-triumph-or-defeat-for-ukraine/ https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nat...