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I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

Azek 5y ago
A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.
- cjonas 5y ago
  without farming they cease to exist at all...
  - puchatek 5y ago
    So 0 bad days.
    - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
      NaN bad days.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - tommoor 5y ago
    One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?
    - cjonas 5y ago
      a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...
      - laumars 5y ago
        I’m not a vegetarian and I still really hate that “if I wasn’t farmed I wouldn’t exist at all” argument because it’s really just an excuse to be shitty to other life forms. The fact is if you didn’t exist then you wouldn’t care either way, so it’s a moot argument. The fact that you do exist changes that, not excuses it. Or in other words: we are not doing other species a favour by eating them. It’s also worth noting that many of the species we far isn’t the natural evolution of that animal. They’ve been bread to be fatter, or more docile etc. Many of the species suffer from health issues due to breeding that their natural cousins do not. The reason a lot of these animals seem suited to farming is because man has bread them that way. This isn’t doing these animals a favour either. It’s purely for man’s own benefit.
        janto 5y ago
        If farming result in the existence of happy animals then the process definitely favors them. If it results in their unhappy existence then it does not favor them. The argument around doing them the favor of providing them existence relies on them having a nice life, until the day we eat them. It sounds like you are opposed to them coming into existence because it means they exist in existential agony. Also that physical agony is a near certainty, by your last paragraph. But that does not seem to be the core of your objection.
        cjonas 5y ago
        When done responsibly, it's pretty clear ranch cattle are in the same or less physical agony as their counter parts. Where I live, it's not uncommon to see wild elk, antelope and sometimes even bison grazing alongside cattle. The wild ones must fend off predators and often starve during the winters. Cattle do not. The same cannot be said for industrial scale ranching. In fact, I think the production of dairy is typically far more more inhumane than that of beef.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - ornornor 5y ago
    If they were never born, is that really so bad?
    - ryathal 5y ago
      Are you ok with Cows becoming extinct?
      - tommoor 5y ago
        Being farmed or being extinct are not the only two choices
      - ornornor 5y ago
        Yes. If your never born, you can’t suffer.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.
  - marliechiller 5y ago
    source of that general rule?
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/286147 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/286147 The general rule was my own synthesis from what little I know of this subject. This study is one of the main sources I used to drive my current understanding. You can also try this search term: "do wild animals die of old age?"
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Whether a wolf would kill a cow before its 25 years old doesn’t affect our moral duty to not kill animals unnecessarily and prematurely.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Perhaps not under your preferred moral system. But yours is not the only moral system. It should be obvious that there are plenty of moral systems where counterfactuals do indeed affect the morality of actions (e.g. any utilitarian system or compound system with a utilitarian component).
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        What moral belief system posits that it is moral to do something simply because someone else would do it? Does anyone actual subscribe to such a belief? Do you?
- parkingrift 5y ago
  It’s not an issue to the animals. They aren’t made aware of their impending death and made to ponder what more of a life they could have lived. From their perspective they are alive and then suddenly, not.
  - Azek 5y ago
    I wish I could still believe that. If you have the time and stomach I'd recommend search up slaughterhouse footage. I'll let you judge for yourself what they're feeling in those moment.
kranner 5y ago
If it can be proved that it really would be just one bad day, e.g. if the animals don't figure out that their friends are disappearing one by one and the same is about to happen to them any day. Clearly the burden of proof is not on the animals.
kodah 5y ago
In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a painful death. In some ways, I'm jealous of that choice, as a man who has faced his own mortality before.
- jamiek88 5y ago
  One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.
  - genericlogic 5y ago
    While I don't know you or your dog - imagine for a moment if you could talk to your dog one last time and tell them the regret you feel. Do you think they would want you to regret the end, or remember all the love before that day? In all my experience with dogs (and animals in general), one of the many lessons they have taught me is forgiveness. Both of others and myself.
  - tacocataco 5y ago
    You made a decision to give that animal the best life you could. Note the "you could" part. You did the best you could, and you obviously learned from your mistakes. Don't be hard on yourself, that's everyone else's job and they don't need the help.
  - kodah 5y ago
    > allowing a dog to last too long I felt this way with the first dog I raised outside of my parents house. Things were slow but fast. One day I found a boil on her neck, rushed her to the hospital only to walk out with no answers a mountain of bills. I spent months seeking more answers with new testing. She was still the same old dog, playing with my other dog constantly. She'd do silly things, demand walks and pets, and stomp/parade around the house with her toys. I begged every night that she make it to her tenth birthday. She did, then shortly after her birthday she'd struggle to eat for days at a time and was acting sleepy. On the third day I brought her to the vet and did the deed. It still hurts remembering her sleepily lay in my lap one last time and watching the life quietly slip away. That was the life I nurtured and the life that guided me to be more of a man every day. A life that demanded evolution and growth out of me in the most compassionate way possible. The vet felt her stomach and said, "Her liver is covered in tumors. You did the right thing." Then I began to reflect; had I been selfish? When I found the boil, was that when I should've done it? What about after all the testing? What about when she'd protest her food for a day? Two? Inevitably, I decided somehow the magical number was three. The only thing that gives me solace is that I consulted the vet constantly on when was the right time. She'd never directly answered me; that choice was mine, a choice I absolutely feared. The advice that sticks out was, "When the dog you know stops being the dog you know." I know in my life I'll have to do this again and I don't think it'll ever get any easier. There's no right answers to this intersection of life, only wrong and less wrong ones. Love is a very tricky thing, especially with a friend that can't say much.

Azek 5y ago

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

cjonas 5y ago
without farming they cease to exist at all...
- puchatek 5y ago
  So 0 bad days.
  - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
    NaN bad days.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- tommoor 5y ago
  One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?
  - cjonas 5y ago
    a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...
    - laumars 5y ago
      I’m not a vegetarian and I still really hate that “if I wasn’t farmed I wouldn’t exist at all” argument because it’s really just an excuse to be shitty to other life forms. The fact is if you didn’t exist then you wouldn’t care either way, so it’s a moot argument. The fact that you do exist changes that, not excuses it. Or in other words: we are not doing other species a favour by eating them. It’s also worth noting that many of the species we far isn’t the natural evolution of that animal. They’ve been bread to be fatter, or more docile etc. Many of the species suffer from health issues due to breeding that their natural cousins do not. The reason a lot of these animals seem suited to farming is because man has bread them that way. This isn’t doing these animals a favour either. It’s purely for man’s own benefit.
      - janto 5y ago
        If farming result in the existence of happy animals then the process definitely favors them. If it results in their unhappy existence then it does not favor them. The argument around doing them the favor of providing them existence relies on them having a nice life, until the day we eat them. It sounds like you are opposed to them coming into existence because it means they exist in existential agony. Also that physical agony is a near certainty, by your last paragraph. But that does not seem to be the core of your objection.
        cjonas 5y ago
        When done responsibly, it's pretty clear ranch cattle are in the same or less physical agony as their counter parts. Where I live, it's not uncommon to see wild elk, antelope and sometimes even bison grazing alongside cattle. The wild ones must fend off predators and often starve during the winters. Cattle do not. The same cannot be said for industrial scale ranching. In fact, I think the production of dairy is typically far more more inhumane than that of beef.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ornornor 5y ago
  If they were never born, is that really so bad?
  - ryathal 5y ago
    Are you ok with Cows becoming extinct?
    - tommoor 5y ago
      Being farmed or being extinct are not the only two choices
    - ornornor 5y ago
      Yes. If your never born, you can’t suffer.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.
- marliechiller 5y ago
  source of that general rule?
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/286147 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/286147 The general rule was my own synthesis from what little I know of this subject. This study is one of the main sources I used to drive my current understanding. You can also try this search term: "do wild animals die of old age?"
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Whether a wolf would kill a cow before its 25 years old doesn’t affect our moral duty to not kill animals unnecessarily and prematurely.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Perhaps not under your preferred moral system. But yours is not the only moral system. It should be obvious that there are plenty of moral systems where counterfactuals do indeed affect the morality of actions (e.g. any utilitarian system or compound system with a utilitarian component).
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      What moral belief system posits that it is moral to do something simply because someone else would do it? Does anyone actual subscribe to such a belief? Do you?
parkingrift 5y ago
It’s not an issue to the animals. They aren’t made aware of their impending death and made to ponder what more of a life they could have lived. From their perspective they are alive and then suddenly, not.
- Azek 5y ago
  I wish I could still believe that. If you have the time and stomach I'd recommend search up slaughterhouse footage. I'll let you judge for yourself what they're feeling in those moment.

kranner 5y ago

If it can be proved that it really would be just one bad day, e.g. if the animals don't figure out that their friends are disappearing one by one and the same is about to happen to them any day. Clearly the burden of proof is not on the animals.

kodah 5y ago

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a painful death. In some ways, I'm jealous of that choice, as a man who has faced his own mortality before.

jamiek88 5y ago
One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.
- genericlogic 5y ago
  While I don't know you or your dog - imagine for a moment if you could talk to your dog one last time and tell them the regret you feel. Do you think they would want you to regret the end, or remember all the love before that day? In all my experience with dogs (and animals in general), one of the many lessons they have taught me is forgiveness. Both of others and myself.
- tacocataco 5y ago
  You made a decision to give that animal the best life you could. Note the "you could" part. You did the best you could, and you obviously learned from your mistakes. Don't be hard on yourself, that's everyone else's job and they don't need the help.
- kodah 5y ago
  > allowing a dog to last too long I felt this way with the first dog I raised outside of my parents house. Things were slow but fast. One day I found a boil on her neck, rushed her to the hospital only to walk out with no answers a mountain of bills. I spent months seeking more answers with new testing. She was still the same old dog, playing with my other dog constantly. She'd do silly things, demand walks and pets, and stomp/parade around the house with her toys. I begged every night that she make it to her tenth birthday. She did, then shortly after her birthday she'd struggle to eat for days at a time and was acting sleepy. On the third day I brought her to the vet and did the deed. It still hurts remembering her sleepily lay in my lap one last time and watching the life quietly slip away. That was the life I nurtured and the life that guided me to be more of a man every day. A life that demanded evolution and growth out of me in the most compassionate way possible. The vet felt her stomach and said, "Her liver is covered in tumors. You did the right thing." Then I began to reflect; had I been selfish? When I found the boil, was that when I should've done it? What about after all the testing? What about when she'd protest her food for a day? Two? Inevitably, I decided somehow the magical number was three. The only thing that gives me solace is that I consulted the vet constantly on when was the right time. She'd never directly answered me; that choice was mine, a choice I absolutely feared. The advice that sticks out was, "When the dog you know stops being the dog you know." I know in my life I'll have to do this again and I don't think it'll ever get any easier. There's no right answers to this intersection of life, only wrong and less wrong ones. Love is a very tricky thing, especially with a friend that can't say much.