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As a European, I think you're wrong on several levels. > When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any

As a European, I think you're wrong on several levels. > When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow and pigs. Or like humans! It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that animals are biologically very similar to us and that they're likely sentient and intelligent. As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof is on anyone claiming otherwise. We share so much biology with animals (this is proven, not conjectured) but you're trying to tell me that somehow it's just humans who are sentient and feel pain? Then prove it. > Let's just call this article what it is: To reassure non-octopus eaters on their superior moral creed and a license to preach this narrative to people who consume octopus Doesn't mean they're wrong. > These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. That may be the case sometimes, and their patronising tone irks me as well, but that doesn't mean they're wrong about this topic. Also, they're not the first ones to voice this idea, not by a longshot. So feel free to decouple your annoyance at "the West" (by which I assume you mean the Anglosphere) from what we can assume to be true until proven otherwise (animal sentience).

deutschewelle 5y ago
Do you actually believe that you would be able to enjoy the same level of human relationships with an octopus? How about a cow? Or a coackroach? You can attach romantic feelings towards anything since if you were so traumatized by having destroyed an sentient thing for your own benefit you would simply not allow yourself to exist. I did not engage with your comment further since it signaled the same amount of moral depth like someone who will claim that homeless meth addicts are humans too and they will invite them to a warm dinner with your family. I seriously somehow doubt that octopus is a hill that animal activists will die on seeing they failed to stop the whaling industry or a certain anti-oil virtue signaling girl with parents who work for the EGR industry who successfully convinced a bunch of people buy EVs. I'm willing to bet that YC is probably going fund a company that will be able to produce imitations of Crustacean meat once the narrative Octopus Lives Matter have disseminated into coastal cities.
- Tomis02 5y ago
  > Do you actually believe that you would be able to enjoy the same level of human relationships with an octopus? How about a cow? Or a coackroach? My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. You're essentially using the same "we're superior to X" argument that has been regularly used for the entirety of human history to try justify what is morally unjustifiable. > I did not engage with your comment further since it signaled the same amount of moral depth like someone who will claim that homeless meth addicts are humans too and they will invite them to a warm dinner with your family. To me it seems you alternate between the "might is right" approach and "everything is the same, nothing matters" pseudo-nihilism. Funny you should talk about moral depth. I'm not trying to offend you but come on. > I seriously somehow doubt that octopus is a hill that animal activists will die on seeing they failed to stop the whaling industry Well, I'm sure in that particular instance there were also many people like you who at best mocked the entire effort and at worst did everything to oppose it for no good reason.
  - deutschewelle 5y ago
    > My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition just as sentient as the mammals you describe. > To me it seems you alternate between the "might is right" approach and "everything is the same, nothing matters" pseudo-nihilism. Funny you should talk about moral depth. I'm not trying to offend you but come on. As I suspected there's nothing really to be gained here, if you do not understand the spirit of what is meant, that you were simply trying to bate me into an endless argument in an endless circle. Poignantly r/european I might add
    - FiberBundle 5y ago
      > When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. > Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition just as sentient as the mammals you describe. The existence of an adaptive mechanism in an organism doesn't mean that any organisms that have such mechanisms are sentient to similar degrees. You're actually completely contradicting yourself here by first arguing that other animals are "less" sentient than humans (presumably because of the neurological complexity of our brains compared to those of other species) and then continue by claiming that plants are similarly sentient to mammals.

deutschewelle 5y ago

Do you actually believe that you would be able to enjoy the same level of human relationships with an octopus? How about a cow? Or a coackroach? You can attach romantic feelings towards anything since if you were so traumatized by having destroyed an sentient thing for your own benefit you would simply not allow yourself to exist. I did not engage with your comment further since it signaled the same amount of moral depth like someone who will claim that homeless meth addicts are humans too and they will invite them to a warm dinner with your family. I seriously somehow doubt that octopus is a hill that animal activists will die on seeing they failed to stop the whaling industry or a certain anti-oil virtue signaling girl with parents who work for the EGR industry who successfully convinced a bunch of people buy EVs. I'm willing to bet that YC is probably going fund a company that will be able to produce imitations of Crustacean meat once the narrative Octopus Lives Matter have disseminated into coastal cities.

Tomis02 5y ago
> Do you actually believe that you would be able to enjoy the same level of human relationships with an octopus? How about a cow? Or a coackroach? My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. You're essentially using the same "we're superior to X" argument that has been regularly used for the entirety of human history to try justify what is morally unjustifiable. > I did not engage with your comment further since it signaled the same amount of moral depth like someone who will claim that homeless meth addicts are humans too and they will invite them to a warm dinner with your family. To me it seems you alternate between the "might is right" approach and "everything is the same, nothing matters" pseudo-nihilism. Funny you should talk about moral depth. I'm not trying to offend you but come on. > I seriously somehow doubt that octopus is a hill that animal activists will die on seeing they failed to stop the whaling industry Well, I'm sure in that particular instance there were also many people like you who at best mocked the entire effort and at worst did everything to oppose it for no good reason.
- deutschewelle 5y ago
  > My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition just as sentient as the mammals you describe. > To me it seems you alternate between the "might is right" approach and "everything is the same, nothing matters" pseudo-nihilism. Funny you should talk about moral depth. I'm not trying to offend you but come on. As I suspected there's nothing really to be gained here, if you do not understand the spirit of what is meant, that you were simply trying to bate me into an endless argument in an endless circle. Poignantly r/european I might add
  - FiberBundle 5y ago
    > When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. > Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition just as sentient as the mammals you describe. The existence of an adaptive mechanism in an organism doesn't mean that any organisms that have such mechanisms are sentient to similar degrees. You're actually completely contradicting yourself here by first arguing that other animals are "less" sentient than humans (presumably because of the neurological complexity of our brains compared to those of other species) and then continue by claiming that plants are similarly sentient to mammals.