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Not really weighing in on any of that. I just find it disingenuous to claim its a work life balance thing when the balance was the choice of the employee to be

by jayd16 5y ago

Not really weighing in on any of that. I just find it disingenuous to claim its a work life balance thing when the balance was the choice of the employee to begin with. I understand the desire to have a cake and eat it but the job was to show up and put in the time. To go back and argue that showing up is now a WLB violation for previously existing jobs is just not defensible. That said, sure, more jobs should just be WFH. If you want that, find it.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
> I understand the desire to have a cake and eat it but the job was to show up and put in the time. To go back and argue that showing up is now a WLB violation for previously existing jobs is just not defensible. Based on your reply, I don't think you truly understand the situation. The work arrangement is always negotiable, and demanding remote when it's proven it can be done at a reasonable productively level is entirely reasonable from an employee perspective. One does not need to put up with unreasonable employer demands in the current job market, and showing up on site five days a week is arguably unreasonable. The job expectations are to deliver results, not warm a chair with colleagues. Of course, if your job performance was based on warming the chair versus delivering, of course, measure that instead of results. If you want to work on site, wonderful, go for it. That does not appear to be the direction the market is going based on available data. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/jobs/2022/02/24/why-remote-jobs-are-changing-work-for-good-if-youre-working-in-the-right-place/ https://www.dallasnews.com/business/jobs/2022/02/24/why-remo... (Why remote jobs are changing work for good — if you’re working in the right place; Over 40% of employees say they would look for a new job if required to go to a worksite five days a week.) https://www.hcamag.com/us/specialization/recruitment/west-coast-tech-firms-increase-hiring-throughout-us/326599 https://www.hcamag.com/us/specialization/recruitment/west-co... (West Coast tech firms increase hiring throughout U.S.) https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/economic_brief/2022/eb_22-07 https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/economic_b... (Are Firms Using Remote Work to Recruit and Retain Workers?) https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/workers-quitting-over-remote-work-going-back-to-office.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/workers-quitting-ov... (The People Who’d Rather Quit Than Give Up Remote Work) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/02/16/covid-19-pandemic-continues-to-reshape-work-in-america/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/02/16/covid-1... (excerpts from this link below) > Working from home is a relatively new experience for a majority of workers with jobs that can be done remotely – 57% say they rarely or never worked from home prior to the coronavirus outbreak. For those who have made the switch to telework, their work lives have changed in some significant ways. On the plus side, most (64%) of those who are now working from home at least some of the time but rarely or never did before the pandemic say it’s easier now for them to balance work with their personal life. And many (44%) say working from home has made it easier for them to get their work done and meet deadlines, while very few (10%) say it’s been harder to do this. At the same time, 60% say they feel less connected to their co-workers now. Most (72%) say working from home hasn’t affected their ability to advance in their job. > Looking to the future, 60% of workers with jobs that can be done from home say when the coronavirus outbreak is over, if they have the choice, they’d like to work from home all or most of the time. This is up from 54% who said the same in 2020. Among those who are currently working from home all or most of the time, 78% say they’d like to continue to do so after the pandemic, up from 64% in 2020.
- jayd16 5y ago
  No I fully understand. I just want to be honest that it's simply a contract negotiation, not some moral force.
ryandrake 5y ago
It's not entirely a free choice. At least in the Bay Area, your ability to live close to work depends to a great degree on your compensation. I'd love to live on the Peninsula right next to work, but there's no way I could afford the rent or a mortgage there. I'd gladly walk to work and work-from-office every day if I was paid what our division's VP was paid. I think the normal-paid people who are within an acceptable commute to work are either willing to live in a shoebox-sized apartment or single and willing to live with many roommates. I guess that's technically a choice, but not a great one.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Those previously existing jobs with inordinately long commutes were always WLB violations, some workers just were willing to put up with them, even when they were very suboptimal. Extreme example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15942945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15942945 > If you want that, find it. And create it, if possible. By putting market pressure in favor of WFH so that employers are forced to adjust to worker demands.

by jayd16 5y ago

toomuchtodo 5y ago

> I understand the desire to have a cake and eat it but the job was to show up and put in the time. To go back and argue that showing up is now a WLB violation for previously existing jobs is just not defensible. Based on your reply, I don't think you truly understand the situation. The work arrangement is always negotiable, and demanding remote when it's proven it can be done at a reasonable productively level is entirely reasonable from an employee perspective. One does not need to put up with unreasonable employer demands in the current job market, and showing up on site five days a week is arguably unreasonable. The job expectations are to deliver results, not warm a chair with colleagues. Of course, if your job performance was based on warming the chair versus delivering, of course, measure that instead of results. If you want to work on site, wonderful, go for it. That does not appear to be the direction the market is going based on available data. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/jobs/2022/02/24/why-remote-jobs-are-changing-work-for-good-if-youre-working-in-the-right-place/ https://www.dallasnews.com/business/jobs/2022/02/24/why-remo... (Why remote jobs are changing work for good — if you’re working in the right place; Over 40% of employees say they would look for a new job if required to go to a worksite five days a week.) https://www.hcamag.com/us/specialization/recruitment/west-coast-tech-firms-increase-hiring-throughout-us/326599 https://www.hcamag.com/us/specialization/recruitment/west-co... (West Coast tech firms increase hiring throughout U.S.) https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/economic_brief/2022/eb_22-07 https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/economic_b... (Are Firms Using Remote Work to Recruit and Retain Workers?) https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/workers-quitting-over-remote-work-going-back-to-office.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/workers-quitting-ov... (The People Who’d Rather Quit Than Give Up Remote Work) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/02/16/covid-19-pandemic-continues-to-reshape-work-in-america/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/02/16/covid-1... (excerpts from this link below) > Working from home is a relatively new experience for a majority of workers with jobs that can be done remotely – 57% say they rarely or never worked from home prior to the coronavirus outbreak. For those who have made the switch to telework, their work lives have changed in some significant ways. On the plus side, most (64%) of those who are now working from home at least some of the time but rarely or never did before the pandemic say it’s easier now for them to balance work with their personal life. And many (44%) say working from home has made it easier for them to get their work done and meet deadlines, while very few (10%) say it’s been harder to do this. At the same time, 60% say they feel less connected to their co-workers now. Most (72%) say working from home hasn’t affected their ability to advance in their job. > Looking to the future, 60% of workers with jobs that can be done from home say when the coronavirus outbreak is over, if they have the choice, they’d like to work from home all or most of the time. This is up from 54% who said the same in 2020. Among those who are currently working from home all or most of the time, 78% say they’d like to continue to do so after the pandemic, up from 64% in 2020.

jayd16 5y ago
No I fully understand. I just want to be honest that it's simply a contract negotiation, not some moral force.

ryandrake 5y ago

It's not entirely a free choice. At least in the Bay Area, your ability to live close to work depends to a great degree on your compensation. I'd love to live on the Peninsula right next to work, but there's no way I could afford the rent or a mortgage there. I'd gladly walk to work and work-from-office every day if I was paid what our division's VP was paid. I think the normal-paid people who are within an acceptable commute to work are either willing to live in a shoebox-sized apartment or single and willing to live with many roommates. I guess that's technically a choice, but not a great one.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Those previously existing jobs with inordinately long commutes were always WLB violations, some workers just were willing to put up with them, even when they were very suboptimal. Extreme example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15942945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15942945 > If you want that, find it. And create it, if possible. By putting market pressure in favor of WFH so that employers are forced to adjust to worker demands.