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> Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. Y

by Ourgon 5y ago

> Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. You're still doing it, detailing bad things about "the west". We know all those things already, yet still you insist on harping on the sins of "the west". May I ask, what do you hope to achieve with this? You know everybody already knows all those things you mention yet still you use far more words describing "our" sins - over, and over, and over again - than you use to describe what brought us to this thread: the fact that Putin just ordered the invasion of a sovereign country on a fake pretence because he wants to re-create the Russian Empire. Yet, still, you bring up Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo, Snowden... who we all know about already. Why? Are you afraid you'd commit an unforgivable sin if you forgot to do penance for "our" sins - and I put "our" in quotes since I do not know where you're from, nor do you know where I'm from but the chance of both of us being part of "the west" is rather high - before you wag a small finger at an opponent? Realise that it is exactly one of the achievements of "the west" that you can criticise "the west" to your heart's content without fear of repercussions. The same is not true in Putin's Russia (where peace protesters have been arrested in the last few hours), Xi's China (no explanation needed, I hope?) or many of "our" other opponents. That does not mean you need to base these discussions around a political version of the lord's prayer - forgive us our sins for we know we are a fallen people. We know we are fallen, but we also know we did not fall as deep as others did, others like Vladimir Putin who waited for a weak American presidency and a divided Europe to launch an invasion. When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? ´Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.´ is how the King James translation of the Bible translates Matthew 7:5. This is true if your sins outweigh those of your opponent's. It is decidedly untrue when the opponent just launched an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to satisfy his dreams of empire.

hutzlibu 5y ago
Actually no. I am not obsessed with any sins at all and I am not fallen. I just can't stand hypocrisy. "When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions?" So why not stop our hypocrisy now and close guantanamo. End our alliances with murderous psychopaths. Etc. Then we will have more credibility, when we deal with all those other murderous psychopaths. (there are plenty of them, I know) But when we fight one evil overloard, while supporting another one, because he side with us - how can anyone in the world really believe, we care and fight for democracy and not rather our own selfish strategic goals? This is what I am hoping to achieve, but don't get me wrong, I have no illusions about that. Self-rightousness is as strong as it ever was. But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there. And I do not want to loose that right, but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past.
- Ourgon 5y ago
  > But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there Indeed, we can, for now. There are some chinks in this armour - Trudeau in Canada activating the Emergencies Act to quell a protest which came a bit too close to the target, increasing censorship through an unholy alliance between industry and government, an unhealthy fawning over the endless possibilities offered by the social credit score system as implemented in China - but for now the bastion still holds. > And I do not want to loose that right, Nor do most of us, bar those who long for the chance to muzzle their ideological opponents - viz. Trudeau in Canada and his ilk, everywhere. > but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. Ah, but there you make a mistake. The whole world does not want to have this right - or at least they have been raised in societies which see "our way of life" in a wholly different way. What "we" gained in freedom to express ourselves any way we want, we gradually lost in things which bound us together - clan/tribal/national pride, religious affiliation, sense of purpose. Our freedom has its price in that it is up to the individual to find acceptable replacements for these factors with differing degrees of success - some find it in financial success, some look for it in political/ideological fervour, lately many people are looking for it in some aspect of identity and the related politics. Why, ever, would you want to leave your known position in the clan, with the elders to tell you what is good, the imam or preacher or priest to tell you what is holy and your future as predictable as that of your ancestors? > I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past. What will you do on that "different path" when an opponent comes up to you and holds a gun to your head? To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. When the man with the gun in his hand comes to threaten you you either fight him, or you submit [1]. [1] and no, this is not a call for open war against Putin, for those who wondered. That time may come but we're not there yet.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "What will you do on that "different path" when an opponent comes up to you and holds a gun to your head"" Knock him down, if the situation allows it, otherwise give in, as long as the gun is pointed to my head. I never said flowers are the only option.
tremon 5y ago
or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? As high a price as Russia is now paying for invading Ukraine?

by Ourgon 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

Actually no. I am not obsessed with any sins at all and I am not fallen. I just can't stand hypocrisy. "When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions?" So why not stop our hypocrisy now and close guantanamo. End our alliances with murderous psychopaths. Etc. Then we will have more credibility, when we deal with all those other murderous psychopaths. (there are plenty of them, I know) But when we fight one evil overloard, while supporting another one, because he side with us - how can anyone in the world really believe, we care and fight for democracy and not rather our own selfish strategic goals? This is what I am hoping to achieve, but don't get me wrong, I have no illusions about that. Self-rightousness is as strong as it ever was. But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there. And I do not want to loose that right, but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past.

Ourgon 5y ago
> But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there Indeed, we can, for now. There are some chinks in this armour - Trudeau in Canada activating the Emergencies Act to quell a protest which came a bit too close to the target, increasing censorship through an unholy alliance between industry and government, an unhealthy fawning over the endless possibilities offered by the social credit score system as implemented in China - but for now the bastion still holds. > And I do not want to loose that right, Nor do most of us, bar those who long for the chance to muzzle their ideological opponents - viz. Trudeau in Canada and his ilk, everywhere. > but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. Ah, but there you make a mistake. The whole world does not want to have this right - or at least they have been raised in societies which see "our way of life" in a wholly different way. What "we" gained in freedom to express ourselves any way we want, we gradually lost in things which bound us together - clan/tribal/national pride, religious affiliation, sense of purpose. Our freedom has its price in that it is up to the individual to find acceptable replacements for these factors with differing degrees of success - some find it in financial success, some look for it in political/ideological fervour, lately many people are looking for it in some aspect of identity and the related politics. Why, ever, would you want to leave your known position in the clan, with the elders to tell you what is good, the imam or preacher or priest to tell you what is holy and your future as predictable as that of your ancestors? > I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past. What will you do on that "different path" when an opponent comes up to you and holds a gun to your head? To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. When the man with the gun in his hand comes to threaten you you either fight him, or you submit [1]. [1] and no, this is not a call for open war against Putin, for those who wondered. That time may come but we're not there yet.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "What will you do on that "different path" when an opponent comes up to you and holds a gun to your head"" Knock him down, if the situation allows it, otherwise give in, as long as the gun is pointed to my head. I never said flowers are the only option.

tremon 5y ago

or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? As high a price as Russia is now paying for invading Ukraine?