5 ms·

Except it’s not “let us have an office”! It’s “let’s force everyone back to the office”! The cynical view is that a lot of people are lonely at home, and can a

by rtpg 5y ago

Except it’s not “let us have an office”! It’s “let’s force everyone back to the office”! The cynical view is that a lot of people are lonely at home, and can already go back to the office but it’s too empty for their tastes and want to force people back.

malermeister 5y ago
Yup - It's people that lack friends and a social circle and want work to force others to spend time with them
- dgfitz 5y ago
  I just professionally blew a gasket about this at work. I sit in a lab, and for the past 2 months there have been a steady stream of people walking in all day long starting a conversation with a work question and then spend the next 30+ minutes just trying to bullshit. Said question could be answered with a chat or an email. I’m happy to bullshit for a minute, ideally not when I’m trying to concentrate. I tried things like putting headphones in, not making eye contact, cussing at my screen while they’re mid sentence, nothing worked. (Engineers amirite ;) ) I finally escalated it and the visits have since stopped. I get the questions over email and chat now. I still chat with the same people for a minute if I see them in the hall or a break room. I don’t go to work to entertain people. I have 3 young kids at home. I don’t have time to work hardly at all when I’m not in the office. I have come to resent people who essentially expect me to entertain them AND can’t seem to take a fucking hint. /rant
  - azinman2 5y ago
    However there is a balance because that bullshitting is serving an important function: creating social capital and a sense of camaraderie. There needs to be room to develop relationships otherwise you lose the team part of work.
    - makeitdouble 5y ago
      It's been almost 2 years now in full remote for a bunch of us. I don't think we're working less as a team than compared to previous places I worked in. I know way less about the other persons lives for sure, and there is less "personal" discussions (perhaps half less ?). But regarding work related communication, dealing with emergencies or anything that mattered in a work context I don't see critical missing bits.
  - corobo 5y ago
    Have you tried not hinting? I don’t mean tell them to fuck off and die or anything, make it tactful of course. Lotta people out there who don’t notice your hints or will even actively ignore them if they’re only hints. Sounds like you got what you wanted when you stopped hinting. Don’t hint, say! Trying the same thing over expecting different results etc etc is madness etc
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      I understand your point. I didn't try the same thing, I tried lots of different things. There were a few times where I would even say "hey I need to get back to this is there anything else you needed?" which worked maybe 30% of the time. "Oh no thanks for the help... hey did you hear about $THING?"
- blub 5y ago
  Friends and a social circle are complementary to professional socialisation. And no, going to meet-ups and conferences isn't a replacement either. It's very nice to be able to discuss with colleagues impromptu about new projects, what they're working on, what new tech they're studying, etc. Or to walk into a discussion in the kitchen about a refactoring, new libraries, etc. But if one just stays on their chair X hours with their head in the monitor and never talks to anyone they won't miss the above either. Same for people working for 5 person start-ups where everyone knows what everyone else is doing.
libraryatnight 5y ago
Exactly. We're getting the option to return. One of my co-workers asked "Who's coming in to see me?!" No one said anything. Nobody is going in but her, because she hates working with her kids at home. She's now swapped to complaining there will be nobody from her team there.
- rtpg 5y ago
  It's a bit unfortunate because there's like... there's a way to have pretty periodic meeting up in the office, if you plan ahead. Ultimately people are a bit whimsical but if you're like "hey, I'm coming to the office on Thursday, you want to come in too, and have lunch?" then it could be a good booster if the option is available. I don't really blame people who want to socialize with their coworkers (I want to as well, sometimes!), it's just unfortunate that we've gotten to this point where leadership seems to be really insistent on choosing the worst way to go about this.
  - zamalek 5y ago
    > I don't really blame people who want to socialize with their coworkers It's an unpopular and superficially brash opinion, but I honestly do. If someone wants social contact during work hours there's a really good chance that they have multiple neighbors who they could meet up with for lunch. Instead, work is misappropriated as a social venue. I'm not suggesting that we should be unsociable robots for 8 hours each day, either, or that productivity is paramount. Quite the opposite. If someone can only get 4 hours of (highly) productive work every day, and used to spend half the day chatting with coworkers, then double their pay and halve their time. Then there's also the environmental and infrastructural impact of people commuting daily for no practical reason. Everyone else, especially essential workers (who's job is usually casually linked to a workplace), suffers in traffic. Need time away from kids? A stipend for a shared workplace would cover that, instead of renting huge amounts of unused office space. Commuting (where remote work is possible) is a terrible and selfish idea no matter how you look at it.
    - jedberg 5y ago
refurb 5y ago
It’s not forcing anyone to do anything. It’s no different than before Covid - some people stayed in the office late because it was a quiet place to finish up work, some people went home and wrapped things up. Nobody was forced to stay late.
- rtpg 5y ago
  Well sure, you can quit after all. There are many places where management are demanding people come into the office. Those are "forcing", for all intents and purposes. There are people who want to work in the office. My understanding is that those people can all do that if they choose so. They can even choose to go every day of the week if they want to. So what is the problem? Why is there a debate? People can do what _they_ want, after all, right? Except that some people not only want to be in the office, but they want their coworkers to be in the office as well. That is what is meant by "forcing" in this discussion. And that is where I have read the most pushback (especially for the big tech companies with huge, mostly unused, offices.
  - refurb 5y ago
    So if I stay late in the office I'm forcing everyone else to stay late too?
    - malermeister 5y ago
      You're not forcing everyone else, but you're actively making the culture worse by shifting expectations and making staying late more acceptable.
      - refurb 5y ago
        Good lord. This sounds a union punishing employees who overproduce - “you’re making the rest of us look bad”. If someone decides to come in and you work remote that’s not forcing anything.
        5y ago

by rtpg 5y ago

malermeister 5y ago

Yup - It's people that lack friends and a social circle and want work to force others to spend time with them

dgfitz 5y ago
I just professionally blew a gasket about this at work. I sit in a lab, and for the past 2 months there have been a steady stream of people walking in all day long starting a conversation with a work question and then spend the next 30+ minutes just trying to bullshit. Said question could be answered with a chat or an email. I’m happy to bullshit for a minute, ideally not when I’m trying to concentrate. I tried things like putting headphones in, not making eye contact, cussing at my screen while they’re mid sentence, nothing worked. (Engineers amirite ;) ) I finally escalated it and the visits have since stopped. I get the questions over email and chat now. I still chat with the same people for a minute if I see them in the hall or a break room. I don’t go to work to entertain people. I have 3 young kids at home. I don’t have time to work hardly at all when I’m not in the office. I have come to resent people who essentially expect me to entertain them AND can’t seem to take a fucking hint. /rant
- azinman2 5y ago
  However there is a balance because that bullshitting is serving an important function: creating social capital and a sense of camaraderie. There needs to be room to develop relationships otherwise you lose the team part of work.
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    It's been almost 2 years now in full remote for a bunch of us. I don't think we're working less as a team than compared to previous places I worked in. I know way less about the other persons lives for sure, and there is less "personal" discussions (perhaps half less ?). But regarding work related communication, dealing with emergencies or anything that mattered in a work context I don't see critical missing bits.
- corobo 5y ago
  Have you tried not hinting? I don’t mean tell them to fuck off and die or anything, make it tactful of course. Lotta people out there who don’t notice your hints or will even actively ignore them if they’re only hints. Sounds like you got what you wanted when you stopped hinting. Don’t hint, say! Trying the same thing over expecting different results etc etc is madness etc
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    I understand your point. I didn't try the same thing, I tried lots of different things. There were a few times where I would even say "hey I need to get back to this is there anything else you needed?" which worked maybe 30% of the time. "Oh no thanks for the help... hey did you hear about $THING?"
blub 5y ago
Friends and a social circle are complementary to professional socialisation. And no, going to meet-ups and conferences isn't a replacement either. It's very nice to be able to discuss with colleagues impromptu about new projects, what they're working on, what new tech they're studying, etc. Or to walk into a discussion in the kitchen about a refactoring, new libraries, etc. But if one just stays on their chair X hours with their head in the monitor and never talks to anyone they won't miss the above either. Same for people working for 5 person start-ups where everyone knows what everyone else is doing.

libraryatnight 5y ago

Exactly. We're getting the option to return. One of my co-workers asked "Who's coming in to see me?!" No one said anything. Nobody is going in but her, because she hates working with her kids at home. She's now swapped to complaining there will be nobody from her team there.

rtpg 5y ago
It's a bit unfortunate because there's like... there's a way to have pretty periodic meeting up in the office, if you plan ahead. Ultimately people are a bit whimsical but if you're like "hey, I'm coming to the office on Thursday, you want to come in too, and have lunch?" then it could be a good booster if the option is available. I don't really blame people who want to socialize with their coworkers (I want to as well, sometimes!), it's just unfortunate that we've gotten to this point where leadership seems to be really insistent on choosing the worst way to go about this.
- zamalek 5y ago
  > I don't really blame people who want to socialize with their coworkers It's an unpopular and superficially brash opinion, but I honestly do. If someone wants social contact during work hours there's a really good chance that they have multiple neighbors who they could meet up with for lunch. Instead, work is misappropriated as a social venue. I'm not suggesting that we should be unsociable robots for 8 hours each day, either, or that productivity is paramount. Quite the opposite. If someone can only get 4 hours of (highly) productive work every day, and used to spend half the day chatting with coworkers, then double their pay and halve their time. Then there's also the environmental and infrastructural impact of people commuting daily for no practical reason. Everyone else, especially essential workers (who's job is usually casually linked to a workplace), suffers in traffic. Need time away from kids? A stipend for a shared workplace would cover that, instead of renting huge amounts of unused office space. Commuting (where remote work is possible) is a terrible and selfish idea no matter how you look at it.
  - jedberg 5y ago

refurb 5y ago

It’s not forcing anyone to do anything. It’s no different than before Covid - some people stayed in the office late because it was a quiet place to finish up work, some people went home and wrapped things up. Nobody was forced to stay late.

rtpg 5y ago
Well sure, you can quit after all. There are many places where management are demanding people come into the office. Those are "forcing", for all intents and purposes. There are people who want to work in the office. My understanding is that those people can all do that if they choose so. They can even choose to go every day of the week if they want to. So what is the problem? Why is there a debate? People can do what _they_ want, after all, right? Except that some people not only want to be in the office, but they want their coworkers to be in the office as well. That is what is meant by "forcing" in this discussion. And that is where I have read the most pushback (especially for the big tech companies with huge, mostly unused, offices.
- refurb 5y ago
  So if I stay late in the office I'm forcing everyone else to stay late too?
  - malermeister 5y ago
    You're not forcing everyone else, but you're actively making the culture worse by shifting expectations and making staying late more acceptable.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Good lord. This sounds a union punishing employees who overproduce - “you’re making the rest of us look bad”. If someone decides to come in and you work remote that’s not forcing anything.
      - 5y ago