5 ms·

I think we all know that "the west" - whether that be the US, western Europe, Israel, Australia or any other country which is normally included under that monik

by Ourgon 5y ago

I think we all know that "the west" - whether that be the US, western Europe, Israel, Australia or any other country which is normally included under that moniker is not perfect, especially after having those things you just mentioned dragged up on each and every occasion. Stop doing that, you do not have to constantly mention all "our" sins to make a point, we know. Putin just invaded a sovereign country, maybe you should mention some of the bad things he and the oligarchs who fund him have been up to? Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, polonium poisonings, journalists falling from windows or being killed on the streets, Alexei Navalny, there's plenty to choose from. Come on, let's hear it. We know "we" are sinners, enough of that - save it for a sunday sermon or something like that. We Know. Now, it is time to pick up "The Western Burden" - or accept the defeat of what we call liberal democracy. And yes, we know that there are many flaws in what we call liberal democracy. It is still preferable, warts and all, over the alternatives, whether that be some harebrained plan from the World Economic Forum, a kleptocratic oligarchy like Putin's Russia, a dystopic surveillance state like Xi's China or some combination of these. So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand?

hutzlibu 5y ago
You speak like all of this happened a long time ago. But Guantanamao is still open. Assange is waiting for extradiction and a secret trial, under conditions the UN official called torture. Snowden hiding from exposing illegal surveillance. And Saudi Arabia still a formidable ally. Despite what they do in their own country or in places like Yemen (or in some embassies). And the list goes on. (heard something about Turkey lately? I did, because I choosed to follow it a bit, but mainstream does not really care) And russia is clearly not a real democracy, but despite all abuse and KGB shit, it is still way more democratic than saudi arabia (they have no voting at all, nor human rights) "So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand? " So I can say in clear words, that I stand by any democratic country and any population fighting against occupying forces. But I deeply distrust the motives of the western powers to actually care about democracy, but rather their stupid games of geopolitics. So yes, I say we start cleaning our shit up. And then we can maybe start lecture other states and play world police. Because the way I see it: western forces would love to help get russia their new afghanistan, with lots of losses, guerilla warfare and dragging it on for years. But this is not helping the people on the ground. Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections.
- Ourgon 5y ago
  > Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. You're still doing it, detailing bad things about "the west". We know all those things already, yet still you insist on harping on the sins of "the west". May I ask, what do you hope to achieve with this? You know everybody already knows all those things you mention yet still you use far more words describing "our" sins - over, and over, and over again - than you use to describe what brought us to this thread: the fact that Putin just ordered the invasion of a sovereign country on a fake pretence because he wants to re-create the Russian Empire. Yet, still, you bring up Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo, Snowden... who we all know about already. Why? Are you afraid you'd commit an unforgivable sin if you forgot to do penance for "our" sins - and I put "our" in quotes since I do not know where you're from, nor do you know where I'm from but the chance of both of us being part of "the west" is rather high - before you wag a small finger at an opponent? Realise that it is exactly one of the achievements of "the west" that you can criticise "the west" to your heart's content without fear of repercussions. The same is not true in Putin's Russia (where peace protesters have been arrested in the last few hours), Xi's China (no explanation needed, I hope?) or many of "our" other opponents. That does not mean you need to base these discussions around a political version of the lord's prayer - forgive us our sins for we know we are a fallen people. We know we are fallen, but we also know we did not fall as deep as others did, others like Vladimir Putin who waited for a weak American presidency and a divided Europe to launch an invasion. When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? ´Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.´ is how the King James translation of the Bible translates Matthew 7:5. This is true if your sins outweigh those of your opponent's. It is decidedly untrue when the opponent just launched an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to satisfy his dreams of empire.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Actually no. I am not obsessed with any sins at all and I am not fallen. I just can't stand hypocrisy. "When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions?" So why not stop our hypocrisy now and close guantanamo. End our alliances with murderous psychopaths. Etc. Then we will have more credibility, when we deal with all those other murderous psychopaths. (there are plenty of them, I know) But when we fight one evil overloard, while supporting another one, because he side with us - how can anyone in the world really believe, we care and fight for democracy and not rather our own selfish strategic goals? This is what I am hoping to achieve, but don't get me wrong, I have no illusions about that. Self-rightousness is as strong as it ever was. But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there. And I do not want to loose that right, but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past.

by Ourgon 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

You speak like all of this happened a long time ago. But Guantanamao is still open. Assange is waiting for extradiction and a secret trial, under conditions the UN official called torture. Snowden hiding from exposing illegal surveillance. And Saudi Arabia still a formidable ally. Despite what they do in their own country or in places like Yemen (or in some embassies). And the list goes on. (heard something about Turkey lately? I did, because I choosed to follow it a bit, but mainstream does not really care) And russia is clearly not a real democracy, but despite all abuse and KGB shit, it is still way more democratic than saudi arabia (they have no voting at all, nor human rights) "So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand? " So I can say in clear words, that I stand by any democratic country and any population fighting against occupying forces. But I deeply distrust the motives of the western powers to actually care about democracy, but rather their stupid games of geopolitics. So yes, I say we start cleaning our shit up. And then we can maybe start lecture other states and play world police. Because the way I see it: western forces would love to help get russia their new afghanistan, with lots of losses, guerilla warfare and dragging it on for years. But this is not helping the people on the ground. Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections.

Ourgon 5y ago
> Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. You're still doing it, detailing bad things about "the west". We know all those things already, yet still you insist on harping on the sins of "the west". May I ask, what do you hope to achieve with this? You know everybody already knows all those things you mention yet still you use far more words describing "our" sins - over, and over, and over again - than you use to describe what brought us to this thread: the fact that Putin just ordered the invasion of a sovereign country on a fake pretence because he wants to re-create the Russian Empire. Yet, still, you bring up Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo, Snowden... who we all know about already. Why? Are you afraid you'd commit an unforgivable sin if you forgot to do penance for "our" sins - and I put "our" in quotes since I do not know where you're from, nor do you know where I'm from but the chance of both of us being part of "the west" is rather high - before you wag a small finger at an opponent? Realise that it is exactly one of the achievements of "the west" that you can criticise "the west" to your heart's content without fear of repercussions. The same is not true in Putin's Russia (where peace protesters have been arrested in the last few hours), Xi's China (no explanation needed, I hope?) or many of "our" other opponents. That does not mean you need to base these discussions around a political version of the lord's prayer - forgive us our sins for we know we are a fallen people. We know we are fallen, but we also know we did not fall as deep as others did, others like Vladimir Putin who waited for a weak American presidency and a divided Europe to launch an invasion. When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? ´Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.´ is how the King James translation of the Bible translates Matthew 7:5. This is true if your sins outweigh those of your opponent's. It is decidedly untrue when the opponent just launched an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to satisfy his dreams of empire.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Actually no. I am not obsessed with any sins at all and I am not fallen. I just can't stand hypocrisy. "When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions?" So why not stop our hypocrisy now and close guantanamo. End our alliances with murderous psychopaths. Etc. Then we will have more credibility, when we deal with all those other murderous psychopaths. (there are plenty of them, I know) But when we fight one evil overloard, while supporting another one, because he side with us - how can anyone in the world really believe, we care and fight for democracy and not rather our own selfish strategic goals? This is what I am hoping to achieve, but don't get me wrong, I have no illusions about that. Self-rightousness is as strong as it ever was. But yes. I am fully aware that it is a privilege and it is a difference, that I can say all of this here and not over there. And I do not want to loose that right, but rather want the whole world to have that right as well. I just want to go a different path, than the usual one, which has not really worked out so far in the past.