4 ms·

It is not just "a bit unfair", it is part of the nonsensical "all bad things are the fault of 'the west'" attitude which has gained so much popularity in the la

by Ourgon 5y ago

It is not just "a bit unfair", it is part of the nonsensical "all bad things are the fault of 'the west'" attitude which has gained so much popularity in the last decades. May I suggest the time has come (or, rather, has been here a long time) to stop (self-) flagellating and to start looking at the things which that much maligned "west" actually does right, things which are - gasp - worth defending?

hutzlibu 5y ago
"May I suggest the time has come (or, rather, has been here a long time)" Well, I agree that this attitude "all bad things are the fault of 'the west'" is quite stupid. But the US is the hegemonial power and wants to maintain it. So it is natural that those in charge get the flak for things going wrong. And about things going wrong: how about the whole war on terror? Was it really a surprise, that you can't make the world a safer place, if you attack countries(against international law in one case), to punish some individuals? And Guantanamo is still open. So yes, the west has some democratic and liberal values worth defending against dictators and co. And some only understand the language of raw power. But maybe that would still work better, if we would stick to those principles all the time and not just, when it suits us.
- Ourgon 5y ago
  I think we all know that "the west" - whether that be the US, western Europe, Israel, Australia or any other country which is normally included under that moniker is not perfect, especially after having those things you just mentioned dragged up on each and every occasion. Stop doing that, you do not have to constantly mention all "our" sins to make a point, we know. Putin just invaded a sovereign country, maybe you should mention some of the bad things he and the oligarchs who fund him have been up to? Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, polonium poisonings, journalists falling from windows or being killed on the streets, Alexei Navalny, there's plenty to choose from. Come on, let's hear it. We know "we" are sinners, enough of that - save it for a sunday sermon or something like that. We Know. Now, it is time to pick up "The Western Burden" - or accept the defeat of what we call liberal democracy. And yes, we know that there are many flaws in what we call liberal democracy. It is still preferable, warts and all, over the alternatives, whether that be some harebrained plan from the World Economic Forum, a kleptocratic oligarchy like Putin's Russia, a dystopic surveillance state like Xi's China or some combination of these. So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand?
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    You speak like all of this happened a long time ago. But Guantanamao is still open. Assange is waiting for extradiction and a secret trial, under conditions the UN official called torture. Snowden hiding from exposing illegal surveillance. And Saudi Arabia still a formidable ally. Despite what they do in their own country or in places like Yemen (or in some embassies). And the list goes on. (heard something about Turkey lately? I did, because I choosed to follow it a bit, but mainstream does not really care) And russia is clearly not a real democracy, but despite all abuse and KGB shit, it is still way more democratic than saudi arabia (they have no voting at all, nor human rights) "So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand? " So I can say in clear words, that I stand by any democratic country and any population fighting against occupying forces. But I deeply distrust the motives of the western powers to actually care about democracy, but rather their stupid games of geopolitics. So yes, I say we start cleaning our shit up. And then we can maybe start lecture other states and play world police. Because the way I see it: western forces would love to help get russia their new afghanistan, with lots of losses, guerilla warfare and dragging it on for years. But this is not helping the people on the ground. Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections.
    - Ourgon 5y ago
      > Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. You're still doing it, detailing bad things about "the west". We know all those things already, yet still you insist on harping on the sins of "the west". May I ask, what do you hope to achieve with this? You know everybody already knows all those things you mention yet still you use far more words describing "our" sins - over, and over, and over again - than you use to describe what brought us to this thread: the fact that Putin just ordered the invasion of a sovereign country on a fake pretence because he wants to re-create the Russian Empire. Yet, still, you bring up Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo, Snowden... who we all know about already. Why? Are you afraid you'd commit an unforgivable sin if you forgot to do penance for "our" sins - and I put "our" in quotes since I do not know where you're from, nor do you know where I'm from but the chance of both of us being part of "the west" is rather high - before you wag a small finger at an opponent? Realise that it is exactly one of the achievements of "the west" that you can criticise "the west" to your heart's content without fear of repercussions. The same is not true in Putin's Russia (where peace protesters have been arrested in the last few hours), Xi's China (no explanation needed, I hope?) or many of "our" other opponents. That does not mean you need to base these discussions around a political version of the lord's prayer - forgive us our sins for we know we are a fallen people. We know we are fallen, but we also know we did not fall as deep as others did, others like Vladimir Putin who waited for a weak American presidency and a divided Europe to launch an invasion. When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? ´Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.´ is how the King James translation of the Bible translates Matthew 7:5. This is true if your sins outweigh those of your opponent's. It is decidedly untrue when the opponent just launched an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to satisfy his dreams of empire.
toyg 5y ago
It takes two to tango. Putin is as much a son of the loot of the USSR as Hitler was of the Versailles agreement. Victory must be magnanimous or it's just temporary.

by Ourgon 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

"May I suggest the time has come (or, rather, has been here a long time)" Well, I agree that this attitude "all bad things are the fault of 'the west'" is quite stupid. But the US is the hegemonial power and wants to maintain it. So it is natural that those in charge get the flak for things going wrong. And about things going wrong: how about the whole war on terror? Was it really a surprise, that you can't make the world a safer place, if you attack countries(against international law in one case), to punish some individuals? And Guantanamo is still open. So yes, the west has some democratic and liberal values worth defending against dictators and co. And some only understand the language of raw power. But maybe that would still work better, if we would stick to those principles all the time and not just, when it suits us.

Ourgon 5y ago
I think we all know that "the west" - whether that be the US, western Europe, Israel, Australia or any other country which is normally included under that moniker is not perfect, especially after having those things you just mentioned dragged up on each and every occasion. Stop doing that, you do not have to constantly mention all "our" sins to make a point, we know. Putin just invaded a sovereign country, maybe you should mention some of the bad things he and the oligarchs who fund him have been up to? Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, polonium poisonings, journalists falling from windows or being killed on the streets, Alexei Navalny, there's plenty to choose from. Come on, let's hear it. We know "we" are sinners, enough of that - save it for a sunday sermon or something like that. We Know. Now, it is time to pick up "The Western Burden" - or accept the defeat of what we call liberal democracy. And yes, we know that there are many flaws in what we call liberal democracy. It is still preferable, warts and all, over the alternatives, whether that be some harebrained plan from the World Economic Forum, a kleptocratic oligarchy like Putin's Russia, a dystopic surveillance state like Xi's China or some combination of these. So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand?
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  You speak like all of this happened a long time ago. But Guantanamao is still open. Assange is waiting for extradiction and a secret trial, under conditions the UN official called torture. Snowden hiding from exposing illegal surveillance. And Saudi Arabia still a formidable ally. Despite what they do in their own country or in places like Yemen (or in some embassies). And the list goes on. (heard something about Turkey lately? I did, because I choosed to follow it a bit, but mainstream does not really care) And russia is clearly not a real democracy, but despite all abuse and KGB shit, it is still way more democratic than saudi arabia (they have no voting at all, nor human rights) "So, what's it going to be? More self-flagellation or, finally, some clear words on where we stand? " So I can say in clear words, that I stand by any democratic country and any population fighting against occupying forces. But I deeply distrust the motives of the western powers to actually care about democracy, but rather their stupid games of geopolitics. So yes, I say we start cleaning our shit up. And then we can maybe start lecture other states and play world police. Because the way I see it: western forces would love to help get russia their new afghanistan, with lots of losses, guerilla warfare and dragging it on for years. But this is not helping the people on the ground. Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
    > Putin is not cemented in power. He can get actually kicked out by elections. So can Xi. It is just that there are elections, and then there are elections. You're still doing it, detailing bad things about "the west". We know all those things already, yet still you insist on harping on the sins of "the west". May I ask, what do you hope to achieve with this? You know everybody already knows all those things you mention yet still you use far more words describing "our" sins - over, and over, and over again - than you use to describe what brought us to this thread: the fact that Putin just ordered the invasion of a sovereign country on a fake pretence because he wants to re-create the Russian Empire. Yet, still, you bring up Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo, Snowden... who we all know about already. Why? Are you afraid you'd commit an unforgivable sin if you forgot to do penance for "our" sins - and I put "our" in quotes since I do not know where you're from, nor do you know where I'm from but the chance of both of us being part of "the west" is rather high - before you wag a small finger at an opponent? Realise that it is exactly one of the achievements of "the west" that you can criticise "the west" to your heart's content without fear of repercussions. The same is not true in Putin's Russia (where peace protesters have been arrested in the last few hours), Xi's China (no explanation needed, I hope?) or many of "our" other opponents. That does not mean you need to base these discussions around a political version of the lord's prayer - forgive us our sins for we know we are a fallen people. We know we are fallen, but we also know we did not fall as deep as others did, others like Vladimir Putin who waited for a weak American presidency and a divided Europe to launch an invasion. When Xi decides to invade Taiwan Guantanamo will probably still be open. Does that mean we should not do our best to keep that invasion from happening, or to make the PRC pay as high a price as feasible for their actions? ´Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.´ is how the King James translation of the Bible translates Matthew 7:5. This is true if your sins outweigh those of your opponent's. It is decidedly untrue when the opponent just launched an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to satisfy his dreams of empire.

toyg 5y ago

It takes two to tango. Putin is as much a son of the loot of the USSR as Hitler was of the Versailles agreement. Victory must be magnanimous or it's just temporary.