12 ms·

Show HN: Programming Time - Playing card game to teach your kids Python

203 points by throwaway47292 5y ago

stonlyb 5y ago
Love this and am looking for more ways to teach programing and stem generally without putting my child in front of a screen all the time. Will be starting with shoots and ladders from as early an age as possible. Looking for other tools to fill the gap between shoot and ladders and this, which may take years to bridge together.
- littlethrowaway 5y ago
  Is shoots and ladders the same as "snakes and ladders" ? https://www.amazon.com/HASBRO-GAMING-Chutes-Ladders-Board/dp/B00V82MG2O https://www.amazon.com/HASBRO-GAMING-Chutes-Ladders-Board/dp... is what you're talking about?
  - dhosek 5y ago
    Yes
- dhosek 5y ago
  Robot Turtles could be a good way to introduce multi-step reasoning. You'll need to be attentive to your kid's developmental level (and don't worry about "other kids." One of the most important things I read was an essay by Keith Gessen in which he related a conversation with his own third-grade teacher who told him that some kids learn to read in kindergarten, some in second grade and in third grade you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart. As a father of twins who learned to read at different ages, I can verify that this is very true) and be prepared to put things aside for months or years as necessary. And there are some pretty good screen-based things a well (I was a little startled to look at my second-grader son who was hypnotized with his iPad while I was working and mom was busy and saw him casually doing some basic algebra problems out of his own volition—although I am quick to admit that there's plenty of Minecraft time too).
trykondev 5y ago
This is so neat! Seems like a really fun game, and I'm also a big fan of the very straightforward & minimal website. Would definitely buy one of the decks you're planning to sell :)
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  Thanks! The 300 decks arrived yesterday, and we were super excited with my daughter. Today we played multiple times and its super fun. Even though we played many times when I printed the game on normal a4 paper, having the real professional cards really make a difference. I plan to also make lisp, c and javascript decks so we can explore more paradigms.
  - prashnts 5y ago
    Just curious if you could share how old is your daughter. I have tried teaching coding (several approaches, but eventually on Scratch) my 9yo nephew, but ran into many issues. For example, trying to debug a counter, I thought it'd be fun if I asked "hey, what's 7 - 2", and he went "it's 5, duh" and then I went "and what's 2 - 7", ... and he went "that's not possible!" Turns out his math teacher hasn't yet introduced negative numbers! I had to go back to number line... Anyway, what you've done is really cool! I'm sure once he's old enough it might prove to be very useful.
    - throwaway47292 5y ago
      She is almost 11 now, but we are coding every day for almost a year now (I am logging the progress here: https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids). Its often we go to the number line :) but because we usually make games, and it was easy to get negative numbers when you go out of the screen, so it "clicked". The whole game was her idea and we started working on it about 5 months ago.
      - prashnts 5y ago
        That's awesome, the end result seems enjoyable even for us adults! :)
block_dagger 5y ago
I suggest simplifying the content of the cards. Love this idea!
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion, I made those specifically with my daughter, and are tailored to improve her level. But you are right, in the future I will make decks with different difficulties.
  - emacsen 5y ago
    May I suggest that instead of Python, if the aim is for children, you consider a block based language such as Scratch or MakeCode? I have a nephew who is ~8 and is doing absolutely amazing with Scratch in his classroom. He's making little mini-games, understanding loops, variables, and he's learning the all-important skill of debugging. When/if he transitions from a block based programming language to one that's purely textual, I feel like that transition will be smooth based on his existing understanding and skills. So if the aim is puzzles for kids, having a setting that they are more familiar with, such as blocks, might make it easier. Just a thought.
    - freediver 5y ago
      Block based programming languages are a bad idea for teaching kids programming and I would argue actually counter productive. There is no need to 'transition' as BASIC, and nowadays HTML or Python, are simple enough for anyone to grasp (like every programmer ever did, some starting with C "even"). If a kid can't grasp BASIC/HTML/Python, they won't be a programmer (with or without Scratch).
      - cpill 5y ago
        Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case? a case study or something or is it just your opinion?
ghostly_s 5y ago
This may well be an effective way to learn to code but god, it sure doesn't seem like a way to have any fun.
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  apparently fun is subjective :D
- dang 5y ago
  Please follow the Show HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html as well as the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. I'm sure you meant no harm, but comments like this have a way of poisoning the culture, especially when they get upvoted to the top of the page, as they often do.
  - ghostly_s 5y ago
    I don't think my comment broke any rules, and I have a hard time taking you seriously when I compare the reality of what goes on here day in day out to the fantasy world of the supposed guidelines.
    - dang 5y ago
      I would say your GP comment was a putdown and therefore gratuitously negative. Obviously a lot of commenters break the guidelines but that doesn't make it ok to break them more.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
wmichelin 5y ago
"Dad can I please play with my toys?" "Not until you learn python you little shit"
- dang 5y ago
  I laughed, but please don't break the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - freediver 5y ago
    Do you read every single comment posted here?
    - dang 5y ago
      Not even close!
    - wglb 5y ago
      Unpossible. Check https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266967
- datavirtue 5y ago
  "When I come back in this room that function better be done!" My kids hate code.
groovy2shoes 5y ago
You had me at "20 sided dice".
- dhosek 5y ago
  Any dungeon master worth his weight in geldings... goes nowhere without his... 20-sided die.
jrgd 5y ago
Simple Efficient Fun I’m a fan.
whoomp12342 5y ago
here we go, right back to punch cards...
ByThyGrace 5y ago
> playing card game to teach your kids > "Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange" Just how old and already well-instructed is said daughter I wonder. Certainly not as young and novice (and sparsely attentive) as my ten year-old who's also learning Python. Because he wants to, I should add.
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  She is almost 11, and some of the cards are very very challenging, and some are impossible for her at the moment, but I just pick the ones who are appropriate for the mood/patience/concentration capacity for the day.
- shantnutiwari 5y ago
  Yeah, going over the RSA algorthim with kids-- maybe other kids are smarter, but Im not sure. I mentored a 16 year old some time ago(python), and also trained young engineers in their 20s-- and just teaching the basics of programming is hard enough without also throwing in crypto algos
notacanofsoda 5y ago
Great idea, similar in spirit to spaced repetition. I wonder if the cards can be simplified to reduce the time it takes to solve a card (possibly more fun due to faster reward) but still retain the same level of knowledge.
shitloadofbooks 5y ago
There's a typo on the ghost card: Roll the dice until your door is different __form__ the ghost's door
- dankwizard 5y ago
  There's a few scattered around - In the memory.txt "Imagine" and "Trillions" are both incorrect. But you know OP has done a good job if we are nitpicking these small things!
Rinum 5y ago
Very cool! I'd recommend simplifying it. I created a card game for SQL and kids were lost when there was too much work involved until I simplified it - https://rowsandtables.com https://rowsandtables.com
- hackernewds 5y ago
  This seems really complicated for the age group (2-4 years old), and becoming a "real data scientist" might not be an aspirational goal for these kids
  - wilgertvelinga 5y ago
    You're mistaking recommended age for number of players. Recommended age is 8+.
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  wow those look amazing!
bb88 5y ago
So for a large deck from this company it's $22 or so. If I were a parent teaching my kids to code, I would do this in a heartbeat. https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/large-blank-card.html https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/large-blank-card.htm...
- hackernewds 5y ago
  I don't understand why you have linked what you have linked
tait 5y ago
I think this is really cool and I would be interested in a set of cards - I emailed the address listed on the page.
hackernewds 5y ago
there is a typo # Roll the dice until your door is # different form the ghost's door. should be from*
sebst 5y ago
Very cool! I took the liberty to cross-post it to my Python News Aggregator over here: https://news.python.sc/item/65013aec-29a0-495c-b288-65abd470c0cc https://news.python.sc/item/65013aec-29a0-495c-b288-65abd470...
appleflaxen 5y ago
Super cool idea! I think I found a typo on this card: https://punkjazz.org/programming-time/photos/c.png https://punkjazz.org/programming-time/photos/c.png Your comment next to e=7 says: "pick a number between (p-1)*(q-1)..." But it seems like it's missing "between 1 and (p-1)*(q-1)..."
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  hehe i didnt want to put `between 1 and` because of the salt fiasco https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21fc1e6686a0b28da29e6fc https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21... and then i had a typo .. i will fix in the next revision!
minroot 5y ago
I hate this kinds of ideas. They should play with the "computer" and learn to program it, know the inner workings.
- bloopernova 5y ago
  I was sat down in front of a computer, given a couple of machine code manuals for the ZX Spectrum, and told to get on with it. I just wished my dad has sat down with me and spent some time with me. This card game would have been great.
  - minroot 5y ago
    Well, I didn't tell that parents shouldn't cooperate with their kids.

Love this and am looking for more ways to teach programing and stem generally without putting my child in front of a screen all the time. Will be starting with shoots and ladders from as early an age as possible. Looking for other tools to fill the gap between shoot and ladders and this, which may take years to bridge together.

littlethrowaway 5y ago
Is shoots and ladders the same as "snakes and ladders" ? https://www.amazon.com/HASBRO-GAMING-Chutes-Ladders-Board/dp/B00V82MG2O https://www.amazon.com/HASBRO-GAMING-Chutes-Ladders-Board/dp... is what you're talking about?
- dhosek 5y ago
  Yes
dhosek 5y ago
Robot Turtles could be a good way to introduce multi-step reasoning. You'll need to be attentive to your kid's developmental level (and don't worry about "other kids." One of the most important things I read was an essay by Keith Gessen in which he related a conversation with his own third-grade teacher who told him that some kids learn to read in kindergarten, some in second grade and in third grade you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart. As a father of twins who learned to read at different ages, I can verify that this is very true) and be prepared to put things aside for months or years as necessary. And there are some pretty good screen-based things a well (I was a little startled to look at my second-grader son who was hypnotized with his iPad while I was working and mom was busy and saw him casually doing some basic algebra problems out of his own volition—although I am quick to admit that there's plenty of Minecraft time too).

trykondev 5y ago

This is so neat! Seems like a really fun game, and I'm also a big fan of the very straightforward & minimal website. Would definitely buy one of the decks you're planning to sell :)

throwaway47292 5y ago
Thanks! The 300 decks arrived yesterday, and we were super excited with my daughter. Today we played multiple times and its super fun. Even though we played many times when I printed the game on normal a4 paper, having the real professional cards really make a difference. I plan to also make lisp, c and javascript decks so we can explore more paradigms.
- prashnts 5y ago
  Just curious if you could share how old is your daughter. I have tried teaching coding (several approaches, but eventually on Scratch) my 9yo nephew, but ran into many issues. For example, trying to debug a counter, I thought it'd be fun if I asked "hey, what's 7 - 2", and he went "it's 5, duh" and then I went "and what's 2 - 7", ... and he went "that's not possible!" Turns out his math teacher hasn't yet introduced negative numbers! I had to go back to number line... Anyway, what you've done is really cool! I'm sure once he's old enough it might prove to be very useful.
  - throwaway47292 5y ago
    She is almost 11 now, but we are coding every day for almost a year now (I am logging the progress here: https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids). Its often we go to the number line :) but because we usually make games, and it was easy to get negative numbers when you go out of the screen, so it "clicked". The whole game was her idea and we started working on it about 5 months ago.
    - prashnts 5y ago
      That's awesome, the end result seems enjoyable even for us adults! :)

block_dagger 5y ago

I suggest simplifying the content of the cards. Love this idea!

throwaway47292 5y ago
Thanks for the suggestion, I made those specifically with my daughter, and are tailored to improve her level. But you are right, in the future I will make decks with different difficulties.
- emacsen 5y ago
  May I suggest that instead of Python, if the aim is for children, you consider a block based language such as Scratch or MakeCode? I have a nephew who is ~8 and is doing absolutely amazing with Scratch in his classroom. He's making little mini-games, understanding loops, variables, and he's learning the all-important skill of debugging. When/if he transitions from a block based programming language to one that's purely textual, I feel like that transition will be smooth based on his existing understanding and skills. So if the aim is puzzles for kids, having a setting that they are more familiar with, such as blocks, might make it easier. Just a thought.
  - freediver 5y ago
    Block based programming languages are a bad idea for teaching kids programming and I would argue actually counter productive. There is no need to 'transition' as BASIC, and nowadays HTML or Python, are simple enough for anyone to grasp (like every programmer ever did, some starting with C "even"). If a kid can't grasp BASIC/HTML/Python, they won't be a programmer (with or without Scratch).
    - cpill 5y ago
      Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case? a case study or something or is it just your opinion?

ghostly_s 5y ago

This may well be an effective way to learn to code but god, it sure doesn't seem like a way to have any fun.

throwaway47292 5y ago
apparently fun is subjective :D
dang 5y ago
Please follow the Show HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html as well as the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. I'm sure you meant no harm, but comments like this have a way of poisoning the culture, especially when they get upvoted to the top of the page, as they often do.
- ghostly_s 5y ago
  I don't think my comment broke any rules, and I have a hard time taking you seriously when I compare the reality of what goes on here day in day out to the fantasy world of the supposed guidelines.
  - dang 5y ago
    I would say your GP comment was a putdown and therefore gratuitously negative. Obviously a lot of commenters break the guidelines but that doesn't make it ok to break them more.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

wmichelin 5y ago

"Dad can I please play with my toys?" "Not until you learn python you little shit"

dang 5y ago
I laughed, but please don't break the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- freediver 5y ago
  Do you read every single comment posted here?
  - dang 5y ago
    Not even close!
  - wglb 5y ago
    Unpossible. Check https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266967
datavirtue 5y ago
"When I come back in this room that function better be done!" My kids hate code.

groovy2shoes 5y ago

You had me at "20 sided dice".

dhosek 5y ago
Any dungeon master worth his weight in geldings... goes nowhere without his... 20-sided die.

jrgd 5y ago

Simple Efficient Fun I’m a fan.

whoomp12342 5y ago

here we go, right back to punch cards...

ByThyGrace 5y ago

> playing card game to teach your kids > "Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange" Just how old and already well-instructed is said daughter I wonder. Certainly not as young and novice (and sparsely attentive) as my ten year-old who's also learning Python. Because he wants to, I should add.

throwaway47292 5y ago
She is almost 11, and some of the cards are very very challenging, and some are impossible for her at the moment, but I just pick the ones who are appropriate for the mood/patience/concentration capacity for the day.
shantnutiwari 5y ago
Yeah, going over the RSA algorthim with kids-- maybe other kids are smarter, but Im not sure. I mentored a 16 year old some time ago(python), and also trained young engineers in their 20s-- and just teaching the basics of programming is hard enough without also throwing in crypto algos

notacanofsoda 5y ago

Great idea, similar in spirit to spaced repetition. I wonder if the cards can be simplified to reduce the time it takes to solve a card (possibly more fun due to faster reward) but still retain the same level of knowledge.

shitloadofbooks 5y ago

There's a typo on the ghost card: Roll the dice until your door is different __form__ the ghost's door

dankwizard 5y ago
There's a few scattered around - In the memory.txt "Imagine" and "Trillions" are both incorrect. But you know OP has done a good job if we are nitpicking these small things!

Rinum 5y ago

Very cool! I'd recommend simplifying it. I created a card game for SQL and kids were lost when there was too much work involved until I simplified it - https://rowsandtables.com https://rowsandtables.com

hackernewds 5y ago
This seems really complicated for the age group (2-4 years old), and becoming a "real data scientist" might not be an aspirational goal for these kids
- wilgertvelinga 5y ago
  You're mistaking recommended age for number of players. Recommended age is 8+.
throwaway47292 5y ago
wow those look amazing!

bb88 5y ago

So for a large deck from this company it's $22 or so. If I were a parent teaching my kids to code, I would do this in a heartbeat. https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/large-blank-card.html https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/large-blank-card.htm...

hackernewds 5y ago
I don't understand why you have linked what you have linked

tait 5y ago

I think this is really cool and I would be interested in a set of cards - I emailed the address listed on the page.

hackernewds 5y ago

there is a typo # Roll the dice until your door is # different form the ghost's door. should be from*

sebst 5y ago

Very cool! I took the liberty to cross-post it to my Python News Aggregator over here: https://news.python.sc/item/65013aec-29a0-495c-b288-65abd470c0cc https://news.python.sc/item/65013aec-29a0-495c-b288-65abd470...

appleflaxen 5y ago

Super cool idea! I think I found a typo on this card: https://punkjazz.org/programming-time/photos/c.png https://punkjazz.org/programming-time/photos/c.png Your comment next to e=7 says: "pick a number between (p-1)*(q-1)..." But it seems like it's missing "between 1 and (p-1)*(q-1)..."

throwaway47292 5y ago
hehe i didnt want to put `between 1 and` because of the salt fiasco https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21fc1e6686a0b28da29e6fc https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21... and then i had a typo .. i will fix in the next revision!

minroot 5y ago

I hate this kinds of ideas. They should play with the "computer" and learn to program it, know the inner workings.

bloopernova 5y ago
I was sat down in front of a computer, given a couple of machine code manuals for the ZX Spectrum, and told to get on with it. I just wished my dad has sat down with me and spent some time with me. This card game would have been great.
- minroot 5y ago
  Well, I didn't tell that parents shouldn't cooperate with their kids.