5 ms·

If as a current TextMate user I'll have to pay for TextMate 2 I'll just switch to MacVim.

phillmv 15y ago
If you don't mind me asking, why on earth would you do that? 1. Your existing copy of TextMate will continue to work just fine 2. Have you used MacVim recently? Assuming TM2 has a totally painless upgrade path from TM1, you will be spending weeks getting used to vim. Surely, it is cheaper to invest in TM2.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  "you will be spending weeks getting used to vim." How in the world would that even be possible? Give it a weekend at most.
  - phillmv 15y ago
    Two days just to get used to it. On and off experimentation for the right set of plugins, eventually getting a good vimrc. A very long time before you get proficient. A hyperbole, no doubt, but vim is way harder to use than TM.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      I think you mean "harder to learn".
      - phillmv 15y ago
        Nope! Harder to use. It's basically impossible to discover new functionality in vim without reading technical documentation for it, whereas in Textmate I assume (having never used it) that feature is accessible using a mouse. TM is more usable than vim.
        zem 15y ago
        not used textmate, but what you're describing is "more discoverable" rather than "more usable"
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". 2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them... 3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
        phillmv 15y ago
        >1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday". It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it. After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which feature accomplishes what. A text editor is not conceptually difficult application. It's unlike a cockpit. Case in point, Textmate. Whatever, it's not worth splitting hairs. I think that not being able to use an app until you thoroughly look at its documentation is a fairly clear cute example of an unusable app. >2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them... I know. I use MacVim almost every day of my life. The menus don't even cover everything you can do with a buffer or a split. >3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy. Reading blogs I think falls under 'documentation'. I don't want to Read Things just to use 10% of a text editor's features.
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        1) "It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it." No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult. 2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usability issue. That menu system would be absurdly deep (which is really just an argument in favor of vim if you think about it critically). 3) Blogs are not "technical documentation", which is what you said. Not to mention that any developer in the world should be able to use compat mode without reading anything. The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover, no matter the presentation. Textmate can avoid this by having a dramatically smaller feature set.
  - scottschulthess 15y ago
    Depends on how you approach it, but, if you are particular, it can take weeks to get everything setup. First you have to learn a lot about vim and what it does. Then you have to memorize the all the shortcuts for all the stuff, there are quite a few. Then muscle memory those. For me personally, there are about 10 plugins I use regularly that don't ship with vim, that I had to discover and learn how to use. So you have to run into an issue, discover its not in vim core, see if there is a plugin, pick a plugin, install it, learn how to use it, etc. Then there is configuring vim to do all the stuff you want. MacVim + Janus.vim helps a ton, but even so, there is tons more stuff to learn about vim to do your daily tasks than there is probably anything else in programming
- plainOldText 15y ago
  1.Yes, indeed my existing version of TextMate will work just fine, however it won't get any new features/updates in the long run since probably most resources will be spent developing TextMate 2. I will be using an abandoned product. 2. My TextMate license is only a few months old, so probably there will be the felling of buyer's remorse. 3. Since MacVim is free if there will ever be a totally new MacVim version I can easily switch to it with no additional costs involved. So in the short run, yes sticking to TextMate is far easier, but in the long run I feel like switching to MacVim will be a better investment.
desireco42 15y ago
Dude don't wait :) Use MacVim today.
- diab0lic 15y ago
  Seriously. Frequent releases, native UI, rich plugin set, customizable, free, multi-platform (vim) and timeless.
- breathesalt 15y ago
  i agree. do not resist, there is no esc :x

If you don't mind me asking, why on earth would you do that? 1. Your existing copy of TextMate will continue to work just fine 2. Have you used MacVim recently? Assuming TM2 has a totally painless upgrade path from TM1, you will be spending weeks getting used to vim. Surely, it is cheaper to invest in TM2.

burgerbrain 15y ago
"you will be spending weeks getting used to vim." How in the world would that even be possible? Give it a weekend at most.
- phillmv 15y ago
  Two days just to get used to it. On and off experimentation for the right set of plugins, eventually getting a good vimrc. A very long time before you get proficient. A hyperbole, no doubt, but vim is way harder to use than TM.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    I think you mean "harder to learn".
    - phillmv 15y ago
      Nope! Harder to use. It's basically impossible to discover new functionality in vim without reading technical documentation for it, whereas in Textmate I assume (having never used it) that feature is accessible using a mouse. TM is more usable than vim.
      - zem 15y ago
        not used textmate, but what you're describing is "more discoverable" rather than "more usable"
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". 2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them... 3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
        phillmv 15y ago
        >1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday". It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it. After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which feature accomplishes what. A text editor is not conceptually difficult application. It's unlike a cockpit. Case in point, Textmate. Whatever, it's not worth splitting hairs. I think that not being able to use an app until you thoroughly look at its documentation is a fairly clear cute example of an unusable app. >2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them... I know. I use MacVim almost every day of my life. The menus don't even cover everything you can do with a buffer or a split. >3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy. Reading blogs I think falls under 'documentation'. I don't want to Read Things just to use 10% of a text editor's features.
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        1) "It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it." No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult. 2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usability issue. That menu system would be absurdly deep (which is really just an argument in favor of vim if you think about it critically). 3) Blogs are not "technical documentation", which is what you said. Not to mention that any developer in the world should be able to use compat mode without reading anything. The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover, no matter the presentation. Textmate can avoid this by having a dramatically smaller feature set.
- scottschulthess 15y ago
  Depends on how you approach it, but, if you are particular, it can take weeks to get everything setup. First you have to learn a lot about vim and what it does. Then you have to memorize the all the shortcuts for all the stuff, there are quite a few. Then muscle memory those. For me personally, there are about 10 plugins I use regularly that don't ship with vim, that I had to discover and learn how to use. So you have to run into an issue, discover its not in vim core, see if there is a plugin, pick a plugin, install it, learn how to use it, etc. Then there is configuring vim to do all the stuff you want. MacVim + Janus.vim helps a ton, but even so, there is tons more stuff to learn about vim to do your daily tasks than there is probably anything else in programming
plainOldText 15y ago
1.Yes, indeed my existing version of TextMate will work just fine, however it won't get any new features/updates in the long run since probably most resources will be spent developing TextMate 2. I will be using an abandoned product. 2. My TextMate license is only a few months old, so probably there will be the felling of buyer's remorse. 3. Since MacVim is free if there will ever be a totally new MacVim version I can easily switch to it with no additional costs involved. So in the short run, yes sticking to TextMate is far easier, but in the long run I feel like switching to MacVim will be a better investment.

desireco42 15y ago

Dude don't wait :) Use MacVim today.

diab0lic 15y ago
Seriously. Frequent releases, native UI, rich plugin set, customizable, free, multi-platform (vim) and timeless.
breathesalt 15y ago
i agree. do not resist, there is no esc :x