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Taking account that this is unproven in humans -- it's enough for me to avoid soybean oil, as cooking oil choice is not very important for my palate. That said
by telchior 5y ago
Taking account that this is unproven in humans -- it's enough for me to avoid soybean oil, as cooking oil choice is not very important for my palate.
That said, which oils would you use for frying and baking? Most high smoke point oils are, like soybean, polyunsaturated, so I'd guess that they could have some of the same (proposed) negative effects. Bonus points if the alternative is widely available (I see potential options like avocado oil and ghee, which may not be in my local stores).
Edit:
To clarify, the following oils are ALSO very high in PUFAs and thus might have similar issues to soybean oil: grapeseed, safflower, sunflower, corn, walnut, cottonseed.
Somewhat lower but still fairly high in PUFAs: sesame, canola, peanut.
Finally, some oils are low in PUFAs but not suitable for the same uses as soybean oil. Olive oil is one of these.
- withinboredom 5y agoHumanity has been using Olive Oil for at least 1000 years. So that seems pretty safe to me.
- gruez 5y agoHumanity has also been drinking alcohol for thousands more, doesn't mean it's safe.
- lkxijlewlf 5y agoUsed to be safer than the water. Some places here in the US, it may still be.
- withinboredom 5y agoAlcohol is certainly safe, just not while operating machinery or so much that it poisons you. These are pretty much modern problems. Back in the day, it was safer to drink alcoholic beverages than water. Alcohol wasn’t as strong back then, or use industrial methods so this is like comparing apples to apple juice.
- jazzyjackson 5y agofwiw while fermentation is at least as old as farming, distillation into liquor only came about in the renaissance. you have to get really competetive to overdose on beer.
- hombre_fatal 5y agoAlcohol is an endocrine/hormone disruptor and has all sorts of effects on the body. It's kind of like saying sugar isn't bad by bringing up LD50 (13.5g/lb bodyweight). Immediately dying from overdose is probably the last thing people have in mind when discussing what foods are bad for us.
- telchior 5y agoYes, but olive oil has a low smoke point and is not used for the same applications. Otherwise I'd happily use it for everything.
- 0xbadcafebee 5y agoYou can use low-smoke-point oils for a lot of cooking if you use them right. Pack a pan full of onions, add EVOO, and fry at medium heat. The release of water from the onions keeps the temperature of the oil down. It works because physics (reducing conductive temperature transfer via evaporative cooling). However, if the pan only has a couple onion slices, or there's more oil than onions, or the heat is way too high, the situation changes. You can also overheat high-smoke-point oils if you're not careful. Careful observation and regulation of environmental factors is necessary in all cases.
- cityofdelusion 5y agoThis is something of a modern myth — me and my ancestors have been using olive oil for all forms of cooking for centuries. It does fine in high heat applications, you just need to vent off the smoke. Flavor isn’t affected in any noticeable way. There’s some YouTube videos with more science behind the “low smoke” oils and the myths of their being bad for cooking at high heats.
- telchior 5y agoI do use EVOO for pan frying and sometimes just let it smoke. However, I thought I could detect an altered flavor as a result. Will have to read more, thanks!
- titaniczero 5y agoHere in spain we use extra virgin olive oil for practically everything and it's fine!
- ghostly_s 5y agoPeanut oil is most often recommended for Asian cuisine.
- telchior 5y agoI currently use peanut oil, but it's still 30% PUFA. Presumably if PUFAs are bad (again, unproven!) then there would be something better.
- slothtrop 5y agoSpecifically for Asian cuisine, all the typically used oils are high in PUFAs. Otherwise there is EVOO.
- ghostly_s 5y agoWhy are you presuming PUFAs are bad? This study doesn't seem to make such a suggestion.
- telchior 5y agoA couple reasons. One, I believe the reason soybean was chosen for this study was simply its prevalence in US food -- not because it's special or unique. As an oil it shares characteristics with a number of others, and the most notable of these characteristics is its fat profile (>50% PUFA). Two, a connection between high PUFA oils in general and poor health outcomes is being postulated by other researchers... and, to be fair, many people who probably have no particular expertise and/or hidden associations, such as diet fads. But that's one of the reasons I asked the question initially; even the sources that would normally be trustworthy on other science (government scientists) have proven to be wildly incorrect and untrustworthy when it comes to dietary issues. I was honestly hoping someone that works in the field would pop up to comment.
- csunbird 5y agoWhy not the good old sunflower oil?
- telchior 5y agoSunflower oil has even higher PUFA content than soybean, which is presumably the cause of these health issues in mice. I believe soybean was just chosen for the study because it's extremely ubiquitous in the US. edit: Partially wrong! I'm told above that high oleic sunflower oil has a different profile with less linoleic oil, and apparently it's becoming more common: https://www.nutritionletter.tufts.edu/general-nutrition/what-is-high-oleic-sunflower-oil/ https://www.nutritionletter.tufts.edu/general-nutrition/what...
- adrian_b 5y agoBesides traditional sunflower oil, which contains mostly linoleic acid (a PUFA), now there is "high oleic sunflower oil", which is extracted from a variety of sunflower initially developed in Russia some 50 years ago, but now grown in most countries. This non-traditional sunflower oil has little PUFA and it is perfect for frying and baking. The sunflower variety grown for high oleic oil has a genetic mutation with this effect, but it was not obtained with the modern genetic modification technologies, because obviously such technologies did not exist in the Soviet Union in the seventies of last century. Instead of that, the Russians have treated some sunflower seeds with a chemical known to cause random genetic mutations. Then they have grown and selected several generations of plants until they have found one type with the desired characteristic of producing oil consisting mainly of oleic acid. Later analysis has shown that this is due to a single mutation, which diminishes the activity of the enzyme that converts oleic acid into linoleic acid in traditional sunflower plants.
- telchior 5y agoOh, I updated my comment for someone else's brief reply then you popped up with the full rundown. Thanks! The detail about forcing genetic mutation is neat, will have to read up on that.
- adrian_b 5y agoFor frying and baking the so-called "high oleic" sunflower oil should be very good, if not the best. It degrades less with heating than other oils and it has a very healthy fatty acid profile. For salads or other food that is not cooked after adding oil, extra virgin olive oil may be preferred, because it contains other desirable substances besides fatty acids, but heating will degrade those, so for frying and baking olive oil does not have any advantage over the much cheaper high oleic sunflower oil. Besides high oleic sunflower oil, there are also other kinds of oil that are claimed to be "high oleic", which should have similar frying properties, but I do not have any experience with those.
- cheald 5y agoAvocado oil is fantastic for high-temperature cooking (smoke point ~500F). "Pure" or "refined" olive oil has a smoke point of around 410F; it's EVOO that has the lower smoke point. Deep frying happens at ~375F. Coconut and MCT oils are great for baking, but they do have lower smoke points (320-350F) so they're inappropriate for frying. I generally prefer cooking, frying, and baking with avocado oil, both because of its health profile and because because it's extremely flavor-neutral, while olive and coconut both add a distinct taste to the dish which may not necessarily be desirable.
- telchior 5y agoOh, I didn't know there's a variant of olive with higher smoke point. I'll look out for that, thanks! Not sure if I'll be able to find avocado but I'll try.
- cheald 5y agoIf you have a Costco nearby, they sell a pretty high quality avocado oil under the "Chosen Foods" label. It runs about $20 for a 2 liter bottle. The UC Davis study that found a bunch of adulterated avocado oils specifically called out the Chosen Foods oil as being one of the good ones.
- adrian_b 5y agoI am sure that avocado oil is excellent for high-temperature cooking and I assume that in USA it is cheap, so it is a good choice. However the price of avocado oil varies wildly from country to country. In Europe, where I live, it is 3 to 6 times more expensive that olive oil and 15 to 20 times more expensive than high oleic sunflower oil. So in most places of Europe, the best choice for high-temperature cooking would be high oleic sunflower oil, because it is very cheap, being produced locally and not imported, like avocado oil.
- bduerst 5y agoJust be careful when you buy Avocado oil, a recent study showed that 82% of the Avocado oil on shelves is either mixed or rancid: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956713520302449?via=ihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095671352... Chosen Foods and Marianne’s Avocado Oil are the only two that are 100% pure refined avocado oil.
- jesterpm 5y agoMy personal philosophy is that nothing is good in excess. Avoiding soy products is hard since soybean oil seems to be the oil of choice for anything pre-made. So I basically avoid soy in most everything I prepare myself (and try to prepare most things myself). When I'm cooking/baking, I use butter, olive oil, and (lately) bacon grease, depending on what I'm making. Coincidentally, in January I had made a list of everything in my fridge and pantry. The only things left with soy were mayonnaise, tortillas, and hamburger buns. I started making the bread products myself for fun. I haven't tried to replace the mayonnaise yet (I really dislike avocado mayo), but it's next.
- telchior 5y agoTortillas should be pretty easy to make at home too, although I've had a tough time finding a press that doesn't break.
- jesterpm 5y agoThey are really easy. I have a tortilla press, but I don't like it (the tortillas weren't thin enough). I've just been rolling them out with a small rolling pin.
- telchior 5y agoYeah, the thinness was my issue as well. Which is how my press got broken: pressing too hard. (That, and extremely low quality iron being used to make it.)
- olva22 5y agoI would second Avocado oil for high heat cooking, high in MUFAs. Also good for uses where you want a tasteless oil like mayo if you don't enjoy the taste of extra virgin olive oil. Extra virgin Olive for low heat application. Definitely want to avoid Cottonseed as it contains a chemical used as male contraception (unless you want that!)
- krrrh 5y agoOne pet theory that I've been harbouring for a while is that the different obesity rates in the US and Canada could be party explained by the dominance of canola vs soy/corn oil in various prepared products. Many brands of mayonnaise or potato chips will use canola oil in the Canadian version and soybean oil in the US version. A sensitive palate can taste the difference in the same way that Mexican coke made with cane sugar is distinguishable from the US HFCS version. Contrary to what many people think canola's omega-3 to omega-6 ratio is actually not too bad, while soy and corn are off the charts in terms of omega-6 dominance. EDIT: to answer your question on cooking or baking, coconut and avocado are great, mostly monounsaturated, and have high smoke points. As does pure olive oil (the yellow stuff, not the green EVOO, which is preferred for salad dressings or lower heat cooking). There was a recent study, done at UC Davis, that found a lot of avocado oil to be fraudulent.[0]. Otherwise for frying, beef tallow is still the best, and ghee can also be used for sautéing since it has a much higher smoke point than unrefined butter. [0] https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/study-finds-82-percent-avocado-oil-rancid-or-mixed-other-oils https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/study-finds-82-percent-avo... > Only two brands produced samples that were pure and nonoxidized. Those were Chosen Foods and Marianne’s Avocado Oil, both refined avocado oils made in Mexico. Among the virgin grades, CalPure produced in California was pure and fresher than the other samples in the same grade.
- zemvpferreira 5y agoWhy not fry in tallow and other animal fats? I'm not an expert in this at all, but I will at least make the argument that we have historically eaten more animal fats than vegetable oils, so we might be better adjusted to it. I'd love to hear from someone who's more educated. Plus, they taste amazing.
- bduerst 5y ago>which oils would you use for frying and baking? Grapeseed oil is my go to. It's fairly neutral in flavor (slight nuttiness), has high smoke point, and is one that is a source of Vitamin E. For frying and then roasting, I use avocado oil, but keep in mind that many avocado oil bought on the shelves are already oxidized or rancid. There's a handful of brands that tested to be pure, one being Chosen Foods (that I use). Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30105062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30105062
- Klonoar 5y agoSeconding this choice as a go-to. I've really found I can't go wrong with it.
- valarauko 5y ago> one that is a source of Vitamin E. AFAIK the high temperature of frying oil destroys the vitamins it may have
- bduerst 5y agoVitamin E is surprisingly stable in oil compared to other vitamins (like A). Unless you're commercially deep frying with the same oil over several days, there's minimal vitamin E loss from frying.
- telchior 5y agoFWIW grapeseed oil is the absolute worst you could use if PUFAs are bad. It's >80% PUFA, higher than any other. Of course that's based on two suppositions: 1) that the reason soybean oil is bad in this study is its PUFA content, and 2) that it's also bad for humans, not just mice.
- bduerst 5y agoThe PUFA in grapeseed oil is linolenic acid (~75%), which this specific study ruled out as the cause of the genetic expression changes observed in high-fat diets with soybean oil. FTA: >One additional note on this study — the research team has not yet isolated which chemicals in the oil are responsible for the changes they found in the hypothalamus. But they have ruled out two candidates. It is not linoleic acid, since the modified oil also produced genetic disruptions; nor is it stigmasterol, a cholesterol-like chemical found naturally in soybean oil.
- azth 5y agoTry Avocado oil, it's supposed to have a high smoke point.
- zaphar 5y agoIf I'm frying something I just use Lard. It's cheap and easily available. If I'm saute'ing something then I use Olive oil.
- KerryJones 5y agoI'm Keto and have done a considerably amount of researching into oils. Saturated fats are usually the best, but in order of preference - Bacon fat - Avocado Oil - Butter - Coconut oil - Olive Oil If it's not one of these (or some other form of meat fat), I skip it.
- heavyset_go 5y agoA few years ago, I went digging through studies and journals to answer this question. The answer I came to was avocado oil, EVOO and refined olive oil for when you desire a higher smoke point than EVOO. EVOO, contrary to intuition, is apparently one of the better oils to use for long periods of pan and deep frying. The impurities lower the rate of oxidation of the oil and the formation of volatile organic compounds.