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> What is the endgame here? Exactly what Putin's always maintained: that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line, so they're preventing Ukraine joining NATO. > The

> What is the endgame here? Exactly what Putin's always maintained: that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line, so they're preventing Ukraine joining NATO. > The risk of NATO intervention is high, right? Russia understood this before invading, right? So it seems Russia is accepting a high risk of loss. The risk of NATO intervention is exactly zero. NATO hasn't done shit except attack random non-NATO countries (Serbia, Libya, Syria, etc...). What did they do when Turkey invaded Cyprus? Nothing. US-led NATO is sacrificing Ukraine in order to get at Russia, the real question is why getting at Russia is so important? Ukraine could have joined NATO in the 1990's, or 2008, or NATO could have given them a guarantee of security. But no, instead the EU and NATO rolled out some long road-map and antagonized Russia along the way. Hell, why didn't the west try to integrate Russia when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were amenable to the idea? Or when Putin was trying to increase cooperation with GWB's US government before the Color Revolutions? Edit - for those downvoting me, it's obvious the west sold-out Ukraine. They forced Ukraine to leave an economic cooperation union with Russia in order to have more European integration (Yanukovych wanted both FYI) but didn't provide a road-map to join the EU, they sold them on NATO membership but without any actual guarantees, etc... Why isn't the west defending Ukraine? Edit2 - also Joe Biden is useless. What was the point of all his warnings? What was the point of every western country pledging to "support" Ukraine? Now the news is talking about Biden announcing "sanctions". No real support. What's the point?

flavius29663 5y ago
Ukraine didn't want to join NATO until 2014.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Ah yes, when the EU forced Ukraine to choose between Europe and Russia for economic cooperation (Yanukovych wanted both, FYI) which led to protests that put a literal CIA asset (Poroshenko was, it's not a secret) into power... Ukraine got played by the West... Even Zelenskiy realised it... Where did any of this lead? The West didn't give any actual guarantees but kept forcing Ukraine to choose between the two...
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    The West is determined to fight to the last Ukrainian!
lm28469 5y ago
> so they're preventing Ukraine joining NATO. It already was the case since 2014, NATO wouldn't accept a country which isn't at peace because they'd be forced to intervene and that would mean a war between Russia and NATO, Russia didn't need further intervention for that
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  So what about prior to 2014? NATO first pitched the idea in 1997, but hadn't actually given Ukraine any guarantees... It feels a lot like the west has been using Ukraine to poke at Russia versus simply integrating Ukraine.
pharke 5y ago
I thought this part of Putin's address on the 21st was surprising and interesting if true > "Moreover, I will say something I have never said publicly, I will say it now for the first time. When then outgoing US President Bill Clinton visited Moscow in 2000, I asked him how America would feel about admitting Russia to NATO. > I will not reveal all the details of that conversation, but the reaction to my question was, let us say, quite restrained, and the Americans’ true attitude to that possibility can actually be seen from their subsequent steps with regard to our country. I am referring to the overt support for terrorists in the North Caucasus, the disregard for our security demands and concerns, NATO’s continued expansion, withdrawal from the ABM Treaty, and so on. It raises the question: why? What is all this about, what is the purpose? All right, you do not want to see us as friends or allies, but why make us an enemy?" https://web.archive.org/web/20220224100924/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67828 https://web.archive.org/web/20220224100924/http://en.kremlin...
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  It is true. Anyone who followed Russian politics from the mid-late 90's to ~2004 remembers Russia trying to "join" the west. Geroge Bush famously talked about looking into Putin's eyes... But the west was more concerned with encircling them and "winning" the Cold War than actually having good relations... Being of Ukrainian descent and interested in where I come from, I've followed the politics there (Russia and Ukraine) since the late 90's... I remember when Putin and Bush cooperated after 9/11 too. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/09/08/the-impact-of-september-11-on-us-russian-relations/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/09/08/t... Getting to where we are today was a long road where the US chose to antagonize Russia many times...
  - mrep 5y ago
    Don't you need to be a democracy to really integrate with the west and they are scored squarely as authoritarian in the democracy index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
    - 5y ago

flavius29663 5y ago

Ukraine didn't want to join NATO until 2014.

Mikeb85 5y ago
Ah yes, when the EU forced Ukraine to choose between Europe and Russia for economic cooperation (Yanukovych wanted both, FYI) which led to protests that put a literal CIA asset (Poroshenko was, it's not a secret) into power... Ukraine got played by the West... Even Zelenskiy realised it... Where did any of this lead? The West didn't give any actual guarantees but kept forcing Ukraine to choose between the two...
- jessaustin 5y ago
  The West is determined to fight to the last Ukrainian!

lm28469 5y ago

> so they're preventing Ukraine joining NATO. It already was the case since 2014, NATO wouldn't accept a country which isn't at peace because they'd be forced to intervene and that would mean a war between Russia and NATO, Russia didn't need further intervention for that

Mikeb85 5y ago
So what about prior to 2014? NATO first pitched the idea in 1997, but hadn't actually given Ukraine any guarantees... It feels a lot like the west has been using Ukraine to poke at Russia versus simply integrating Ukraine.

pharke 5y ago

I thought this part of Putin's address on the 21st was surprising and interesting if true > "Moreover, I will say something I have never said publicly, I will say it now for the first time. When then outgoing US President Bill Clinton visited Moscow in 2000, I asked him how America would feel about admitting Russia to NATO. > I will not reveal all the details of that conversation, but the reaction to my question was, let us say, quite restrained, and the Americans’ true attitude to that possibility can actually be seen from their subsequent steps with regard to our country. I am referring to the overt support for terrorists in the North Caucasus, the disregard for our security demands and concerns, NATO’s continued expansion, withdrawal from the ABM Treaty, and so on. It raises the question: why? What is all this about, what is the purpose? All right, you do not want to see us as friends or allies, but why make us an enemy?" https://web.archive.org/web/20220224100924/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67828 https://web.archive.org/web/20220224100924/http://en.kremlin...

Mikeb85 5y ago
It is true. Anyone who followed Russian politics from the mid-late 90's to ~2004 remembers Russia trying to "join" the west. Geroge Bush famously talked about looking into Putin's eyes... But the west was more concerned with encircling them and "winning" the Cold War than actually having good relations... Being of Ukrainian descent and interested in where I come from, I've followed the politics there (Russia and Ukraine) since the late 90's... I remember when Putin and Bush cooperated after 9/11 too. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/09/08/the-impact-of-september-11-on-us-russian-relations/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/09/08/t... Getting to where we are today was a long road where the US chose to antagonize Russia many times...
- mrep 5y ago
  Don't you need to be a democracy to really integrate with the west and they are scored squarely as authoritarian in the democracy index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
  - 5y ago