10 ms·

I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality. I totally get paying when you don't have to in order to support fellow developers. I've got a nice colle

by gecko 15y ago

I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality. I totally get paying when you don't have to in order to support fellow developers. I've got a nice collection of apps on my phone and desktop, all purchased, that I've acquired over the years to support my friends' development efforts. So if Marco wants to help out Macromates, that's fine. More power to him. But I don't understand this mantra of, "We'll forgive you; just charge everyone." Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair. Zoom back several years to the era Marco's talking about. TextMate 1.0 ships. It's a nice editor--really nice, actually--but it has a lot of rough edges to it. But, Allen promises, buy now anyway; upgrades through version 2.0 are completely free. So a lot of people, including me, slapped down money to buy version 1.0 on this promise. (And in my case, also to support an upstart dev who was daring to take down the 800-pound gorilla of Mac text editors, Bare Bones' BBEdit.) But that promise never materialized. TextMate got a lot of improvements initially, but there's now a relatively large collection of third-party plugins you need just to achieve parity with the now-native versions of Vim and Emacs that can be had for free. And in exchange for not shipping anything for literally years, you want to reward him by paying him more? What am I missing here?

davidw 15y ago
Parity with Emacs? M-x no-way-no-how
alttag 15y ago
> I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality. Like, say, tipping at a nice restaurant. You may not like the food, but it seems others did, and they want to demonstrate that to the chef.
- gecko 15y ago
  As I said: I can understand Marco wanting to pay. I didn't like my meal, Marco did, and he should feel free to give a great tip. I'm focused on the people who are saying that Macromates should charge users for the upgrade they said would be free. This would be equivalent to someone saying that, because they enjoyed their meal at the restaurant, the restaurant should charge a mandatory 25% tip to all current patrons of the restaurant. That's a very different situation.
  - alttag 15y ago
    I think you're right that everyone shouldn't be charged because Marco and others think the product is worth it. Some bought it on the promise of a free upgrade. An upgrade to version 2 wasn't part of the "value" I attributed to TM when I bought it years ago, so were it not free, I'd seriously consider buying anyway (even though I do little coding nowadays, and am impressed with SublimeText2). So, count me as mixed on the whole thing. I wouldn't balk at a nominal upgrade fee, and don't begrudge those who want to pay more, but sympathize with those who bought on the promise of an upgrade years ago.
    - spooneybarger 15y ago
      I never would have bought TM1 w/o the promise of TM2. Even with that, I kind of regret buying it. For how I used it, it was a decent text editor that allowed me to experience the spinning beach ball of death at least 10 times a day.
      - wnight 15y ago
        I thought the free upgrades forever deal for Minecraft was great. I only rarely get to game and if I had to upgrade every six months to play with everyone else it'd be prohibitive. It's a big obligation that the maker of Textmate and Notch of Minecraft took on but founders do sillier things (look at the deals VCs cut) for funding.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Accidentally down instead of up voted you. Apologies.
- reidmain 15y ago
  This is exactly what I was thinking. If Macro wants to give someone more money than power to him. There are developers who I've bought additional licenses for friends in the slim hope that they would use the app but worst case I supported the developer. Forcing everyone to support your love for a developer is asine. Macro may be head over heels for TextMate but there are a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with broken promises from MacroMates. Forcing them to pay more is a slap in the face.
- riffraff 15y ago
  I believe (and imagine this is what grandparent meant) that this looks more like a case of "every table will leave a tip, so just charge more than the original menu price when the bill comes". IMHO If Mr. Pink does not want to tip he should have the right not to do it, since that was the original agreement.
- derefr 15y ago
  Then here's an idea that may make everybody here happy: the price for the software new is $60. The price for the software with a code from the previous edition is what you want. You can put in $60, or $0, or $256. How 'bout that?
  - irons 15y ago
    Marco's position, which I support, is a little like Warren Buffett pointing out that his taxes are too low, which I also support. People who reply "Well if you think your taxes are so low, make a voluntary contribution" are probably-deliberately overlooking that the goal isn't for an individual to pay more, it's to provide meaningful support to the entity which needs the revenue, whether that's Allen Odgaard or the US government.
    - spooneybarger 15y ago
      People didn't agree to pay taxes because they were promised that their taxes would remain at X rate for Y period of time. People did agree to buy TM1 because of the promise of a free upgrade to TM2.
    - derefr 15y ago
      I'm not suggesting a "voluntary contribution" (i.e. a donate button beside a free download link.) I'm suggesting a real payment/checkout process, with a lot of inbuilt social pressure to put in a number that's not zero. You know, like how the Humble Indie Bundles work.
- wnight 15y ago
  Your example is horrid. Tips are in no way a signal to the chef. In fact, you're "supposed" to tip about the same for a poorly cooked meal as a good one so as to avoid unreasonably short-changing your server who had nothing to do with the quality. Tips are merely how restaurants get away with lying about their prices. They don't pay their employees minimum wage knowing you'll be gullible enough to pay the unannounced post-bill markup without a fuss.
- 5teev 15y ago
  Not a great analogy: while almost everyone else at the restaurant works for tips, the chef doesn't.
vtail 15y ago
It's very likely that the original promise ("upgrade to version 2.0 will be completely free") was a huge factor in 2.0 shipping delay: Allan would need to invest a lot of effort to ship the new version to get only marginal return, as TextMate penetration of the relevant market was already high at the time the promise was made. Charging for 2.0 would seem like a breach of contract for people who only bought TextMate 1.x because they were expecting 2.0 soon. But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away. I for one would gladly pay for all hard work that went into rewriting TextMate.
- phillmv 15y ago
  I can't believe there are so many cheapskates in here. It's $60! WHO CARES! It's a tool you presumably use every single hour of your programming life. I refuse to accept that you feel personally violated over an idiot promise the author made six years ago. Are people really saying that if the dude came out and said, "Hey guys, it's done but… if I keep my original promise, I literally won't be able to afford the bandwidth needed to distribute it" you'd feel personally slighted? I'm not a fan of paying for dev tools, as I think open source is the way to go (yadda yadda yadda) but you're a professional for crying out loud. You get to write this off on your taxes.
  - teaspoon 15y ago
    You're making the same faulty assumption that Marco does: that everyone who bought TextMate is a fellow software developer living in a wealthy nation. Many of the "cheapskates in here" are happy to pay twice, but recognize that it's a privilege to be able to do so.
    - phillmv 15y ago
      Bro, c'mon now. I hate using this argument, but if you can afford a macbook you can definitely pony up $60 for your main development tool. Dude's running a business, not a charity. Shit, I use vim. If you're so screwed for cash there are a couple of first class alternatives. EDIT: I use a macbook too. I think it's a great dev platform. It only represents about 5% of my yearly income, though. I doubt I'd be using it if it were costing me 20% of my yearly income.
embwbam 15y ago
I'd rather pay $60 to have it, than pay nothing and it not get done.
- FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
  This logic fails if it's not a universal agreement. When it's not, you're just paying money for an expectation that may never materialise. One might call it gambling.
  - zekel 15y ago
    Or supporting a worthy cause.
    - FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
      This doesn't even rate on my list of worthy causes. The developer of TextMate got paid when I bought a license for that software. He runs/owns a business running for profit and he has the means and expertise to make that. And indeed he will if he gets a second version out. There are countless NPOs and registered charities that require donations and spend the money on running wholly unprofitable services to people who have no way of paying the organisation back. Services that, as a result, would not exist (and be actively avoided if they did) if left to the free market. They deserve whatever money you're willing to throw away a hell of a lot more than a developer who has trouble keeping his shit in order.
tptacek 15y ago
The simplest distillation of what Marco is saying may be: Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it. Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate. Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to switch to a different editor because Odgaard burns out on Textmate completely.
- octover 15y ago
  Does Allan have a pricing mistake for Marco to fix? I haven't heard anywhere that it is a real impediment to TM2. Even in the list message from Allan, he mentions that maybe it was a mistake, but money wasn't his primary motivation. If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation to work on TextMate. Marco should buy another license if he wants, and I, and many other developers will most likely follow suite of our own free will. I just can't trust Marco's analysis when it feels like he doesn't seem to give any consideration to the fallout. In the last Build and Analyze he also didn't know Allan's employment situation, and many other things that don't seem to vibe with what I know of the situation as someone who has used TextMate since it was first released. Granted I know he was being a bit flippant at this point, but he brought up how there are holidays before Christmas that could further delay things, but since Thanksgiving is firmly a US holiday and Allan is a Dane living in Denmark, it's fairly safe to say that Nov. 24 and that entire week are just going to be another week for Allan.
  - BenSS 15y ago
    He could simply be honest that he's expending a lot more effort on v2 to make it as awesome as he wants it to be. Charge the full price, but offer a refund or full price rebate if you show that you bought v1.
alnayyir 15y ago
>What am I missing here? vimtutor or Emacs info-pages so you're no longer dependent on commercial entities for the cornerstone of your tools.
racerrick 15y ago
It's like taxes... you can always pay more if you want to!
sliverstorm 15y ago
It's quite simple. On the one hand, hold him to his promise (because after all a man's word is his bond) and get no TM2. On the other hand, allow him to renig on his promise (sacrificing your ideals of what is right, just and fair, and another $60) and get TM2. To some people- not all people- having TM2 is more valuable than sticking to their idealogical guns.
d5tryr 15y ago
You answered your own question - "Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair."

by gecko 15y ago

davidw 15y ago

Parity with Emacs? M-x no-way-no-how

alttag 15y ago

> I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality. Like, say, tipping at a nice restaurant. You may not like the food, but it seems others did, and they want to demonstrate that to the chef.

gecko 15y ago
As I said: I can understand Marco wanting to pay. I didn't like my meal, Marco did, and he should feel free to give a great tip. I'm focused on the people who are saying that Macromates should charge users for the upgrade they said would be free. This would be equivalent to someone saying that, because they enjoyed their meal at the restaurant, the restaurant should charge a mandatory 25% tip to all current patrons of the restaurant. That's a very different situation.
- alttag 15y ago
  I think you're right that everyone shouldn't be charged because Marco and others think the product is worth it. Some bought it on the promise of a free upgrade. An upgrade to version 2 wasn't part of the "value" I attributed to TM when I bought it years ago, so were it not free, I'd seriously consider buying anyway (even though I do little coding nowadays, and am impressed with SublimeText2). So, count me as mixed on the whole thing. I wouldn't balk at a nominal upgrade fee, and don't begrudge those who want to pay more, but sympathize with those who bought on the promise of an upgrade years ago.
  - spooneybarger 15y ago
    I never would have bought TM1 w/o the promise of TM2. Even with that, I kind of regret buying it. For how I used it, it was a decent text editor that allowed me to experience the spinning beach ball of death at least 10 times a day.
    - wnight 15y ago
      I thought the free upgrades forever deal for Minecraft was great. I only rarely get to game and if I had to upgrade every six months to play with everyone else it'd be prohibitive. It's a big obligation that the maker of Textmate and Notch of Minecraft took on but founders do sillier things (look at the deals VCs cut) for funding.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Accidentally down instead of up voted you. Apologies.
reidmain 15y ago
This is exactly what I was thinking. If Macro wants to give someone more money than power to him. There are developers who I've bought additional licenses for friends in the slim hope that they would use the app but worst case I supported the developer. Forcing everyone to support your love for a developer is asine. Macro may be head over heels for TextMate but there are a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with broken promises from MacroMates. Forcing them to pay more is a slap in the face.
riffraff 15y ago
I believe (and imagine this is what grandparent meant) that this looks more like a case of "every table will leave a tip, so just charge more than the original menu price when the bill comes". IMHO If Mr. Pink does not want to tip he should have the right not to do it, since that was the original agreement.
derefr 15y ago
Then here's an idea that may make everybody here happy: the price for the software new is $60. The price for the software with a code from the previous edition is what you want. You can put in $60, or $0, or $256. How 'bout that?
- irons 15y ago
  Marco's position, which I support, is a little like Warren Buffett pointing out that his taxes are too low, which I also support. People who reply "Well if you think your taxes are so low, make a voluntary contribution" are probably-deliberately overlooking that the goal isn't for an individual to pay more, it's to provide meaningful support to the entity which needs the revenue, whether that's Allen Odgaard or the US government.
  - spooneybarger 15y ago
    People didn't agree to pay taxes because they were promised that their taxes would remain at X rate for Y period of time. People did agree to buy TM1 because of the promise of a free upgrade to TM2.
  - derefr 15y ago
    I'm not suggesting a "voluntary contribution" (i.e. a donate button beside a free download link.) I'm suggesting a real payment/checkout process, with a lot of inbuilt social pressure to put in a number that's not zero. You know, like how the Humble Indie Bundles work.
wnight 15y ago
Your example is horrid. Tips are in no way a signal to the chef. In fact, you're "supposed" to tip about the same for a poorly cooked meal as a good one so as to avoid unreasonably short-changing your server who had nothing to do with the quality. Tips are merely how restaurants get away with lying about their prices. They don't pay their employees minimum wage knowing you'll be gullible enough to pay the unannounced post-bill markup without a fuss.
5teev 15y ago
Not a great analogy: while almost everyone else at the restaurant works for tips, the chef doesn't.

vtail 15y ago

It's very likely that the original promise ("upgrade to version 2.0 will be completely free") was a huge factor in 2.0 shipping delay: Allan would need to invest a lot of effort to ship the new version to get only marginal return, as TextMate penetration of the relevant market was already high at the time the promise was made. Charging for 2.0 would seem like a breach of contract for people who only bought TextMate 1.x because they were expecting 2.0 soon. But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away. I for one would gladly pay for all hard work that went into rewriting TextMate.

phillmv 15y ago
I can't believe there are so many cheapskates in here. It's $60! WHO CARES! It's a tool you presumably use every single hour of your programming life. I refuse to accept that you feel personally violated over an idiot promise the author made six years ago. Are people really saying that if the dude came out and said, "Hey guys, it's done but… if I keep my original promise, I literally won't be able to afford the bandwidth needed to distribute it" you'd feel personally slighted? I'm not a fan of paying for dev tools, as I think open source is the way to go (yadda yadda yadda) but you're a professional for crying out loud. You get to write this off on your taxes.
- teaspoon 15y ago
  You're making the same faulty assumption that Marco does: that everyone who bought TextMate is a fellow software developer living in a wealthy nation. Many of the "cheapskates in here" are happy to pay twice, but recognize that it's a privilege to be able to do so.
  - phillmv 15y ago
    Bro, c'mon now. I hate using this argument, but if you can afford a macbook you can definitely pony up $60 for your main development tool. Dude's running a business, not a charity. Shit, I use vim. If you're so screwed for cash there are a couple of first class alternatives. EDIT: I use a macbook too. I think it's a great dev platform. It only represents about 5% of my yearly income, though. I doubt I'd be using it if it were costing me 20% of my yearly income.

embwbam 15y ago

I'd rather pay $60 to have it, than pay nothing and it not get done.

FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
This logic fails if it's not a universal agreement. When it's not, you're just paying money for an expectation that may never materialise. One might call it gambling.
- zekel 15y ago
  Or supporting a worthy cause.
  - FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
    This doesn't even rate on my list of worthy causes. The developer of TextMate got paid when I bought a license for that software. He runs/owns a business running for profit and he has the means and expertise to make that. And indeed he will if he gets a second version out. There are countless NPOs and registered charities that require donations and spend the money on running wholly unprofitable services to people who have no way of paying the organisation back. Services that, as a result, would not exist (and be actively avoided if they did) if left to the free market. They deserve whatever money you're willing to throw away a hell of a lot more than a developer who has trouble keeping his shit in order.

tptacek 15y ago

The simplest distillation of what Marco is saying may be: Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it. Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate. Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to switch to a different editor because Odgaard burns out on Textmate completely.

octover 15y ago
Does Allan have a pricing mistake for Marco to fix? I haven't heard anywhere that it is a real impediment to TM2. Even in the list message from Allan, he mentions that maybe it was a mistake, but money wasn't his primary motivation. If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation to work on TextMate. Marco should buy another license if he wants, and I, and many other developers will most likely follow suite of our own free will. I just can't trust Marco's analysis when it feels like he doesn't seem to give any consideration to the fallout. In the last Build and Analyze he also didn't know Allan's employment situation, and many other things that don't seem to vibe with what I know of the situation as someone who has used TextMate since it was first released. Granted I know he was being a bit flippant at this point, but he brought up how there are holidays before Christmas that could further delay things, but since Thanksgiving is firmly a US holiday and Allan is a Dane living in Denmark, it's fairly safe to say that Nov. 24 and that entire week are just going to be another week for Allan.
- BenSS 15y ago
  He could simply be honest that he's expending a lot more effort on v2 to make it as awesome as he wants it to be. Charge the full price, but offer a refund or full price rebate if you show that you bought v1.

alnayyir 15y ago

>What am I missing here? vimtutor or Emacs info-pages so you're no longer dependent on commercial entities for the cornerstone of your tools.

racerrick 15y ago

It's like taxes... you can always pay more if you want to!

sliverstorm 15y ago

It's quite simple. On the one hand, hold him to his promise (because after all a man's word is his bond) and get no TM2. On the other hand, allow him to renig on his promise (sacrificing your ideals of what is right, just and fair, and another $60) and get TM2. To some people- not all people- having TM2 is more valuable than sticking to their idealogical guns.

d5tryr 15y ago

You answered your own question - "Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair."