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Congratulations Scalapay! IMHO Italy has a significant startup advantages, thanks to plentiful infrastructure in the cities, a dynamic culture that combines cre

by jph 5y ago

Congratulations Scalapay! IMHO Italy has a significant startup advantages, thanks to plentiful infrastructure in the cities, a dynamic culture that combines creativity and processes, and a sizeable economy. I recently visited Milan-Florence-Rome and these feel to me very much like the startup scene in San Francisco in the mid-1990s, ready to grow fast and big. I believe the missing ingredient is more VC startup ecosystem help, from incubators through Series A. If you're interested in this area, I'd love to connect because I see opportunities to grow the talent and money in Italy instead of having it leave for London & NYC.

qsort 5y ago
Honestly our insane taxation is holding us back. My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make. The job market is perma-bearish and has been so since before I was even born.
- okokwhatever 5y ago
  amen
- kfk 5y ago
  Taxes are a problem but the work culture is also an issue. I tried to setup shop in Italy last year and it was... a mess. People not joining calls, broken English, a very concerning lack of trust in general from job candidates. I was offering market or higher than market wages. I ended up hiring more in our base in Krakow. It's getting harder to find people in Krakow but the work culture is on another level and English good across the board. Net IT salaries in Poland are more or less comparable to Italian ones, the overall cost difference is max ~20% for senior roles, so yeah taxes, but not enough to explain the "hold back" honestly.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    The work ethic in Italy is … interesting. In my experience, they get their shit done when they say it will be done, not when you say it should be done. They enjoy time with family, and time away from work (when I say enjoy, I mean they will make time for it, even in the middle of an American defined work day). I’ve never had an issue with the Italians I’ve worked with and I’ve truly enjoyed spending time with them.
  - lultimouomo 5y ago
    I think one issue is that market wages (or reasonably higher than market ones) for developers are so low that good talent will simply not be interested in your offer, especially if you are a small company (in which case you can at least play the "job security" card, which I think has a lot of weight here). Setting up shop or working as a freelancer just pays so much better.
- agopaul 5y ago
  Well, that feels like a gross oversimplification. Other countries have tax brackets not too different from Italy's (eg. Germany), and Italy is not too high in the charts of cost of labour. Economists would argue that it's a mixture of things: high taxes, low productivity, broken justice system, slow and intricate bureaucracy that does not really work, etc. I bet that if Italy's economy would be based on high value-added industries (like France and Germany), less people would complain about high taxes.
  - qsort 5y ago
    > high taxes, low productivity, broken justice system, slow and intricate bureaucracy that does not really work All of those things are absolutely true. I mentioned taxes because taxation at 46% of the GDP (pre-covid) is just ridicolous.
    - toqy 5y ago
      I don’t know why you guys want to be America so bad. Nobody I personally know that has had the chance to move to the EU has ever returned. Roughly a sample size of 5, but you get the point.
      - wil421 5y ago
        Everyone I know has returned. Sample size of ~8.
        toqy 5y ago
        It’s also not the general consensus I find by reading peoples experiences across various platforms online. I went to school for a year in Germany and greatly enjoyed it. Of course I expect a different opinion from the top 3% income tech bro libertarian bent of the HN user base. But I haven’t seen a compelling reason here to think life for the average American is better than it is for someone in the EU.
        5y ago
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make. That's not horrifically abnormal. A 2x multiplier on salary is considered standard in the US for the cost to an employer. If you make 20% less than a US counterpart, the company is breaking even.

by jph 5y ago

qsort 5y ago

Honestly our insane taxation is holding us back. My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make. The job market is perma-bearish and has been so since before I was even born.

okokwhatever 5y ago
amen
kfk 5y ago
Taxes are a problem but the work culture is also an issue. I tried to setup shop in Italy last year and it was... a mess. People not joining calls, broken English, a very concerning lack of trust in general from job candidates. I was offering market or higher than market wages. I ended up hiring more in our base in Krakow. It's getting harder to find people in Krakow but the work culture is on another level and English good across the board. Net IT salaries in Poland are more or less comparable to Italian ones, the overall cost difference is max ~20% for senior roles, so yeah taxes, but not enough to explain the "hold back" honestly.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  The work ethic in Italy is … interesting. In my experience, they get their shit done when they say it will be done, not when you say it should be done. They enjoy time with family, and time away from work (when I say enjoy, I mean they will make time for it, even in the middle of an American defined work day). I’ve never had an issue with the Italians I’ve worked with and I’ve truly enjoyed spending time with them.
- lultimouomo 5y ago
  I think one issue is that market wages (or reasonably higher than market ones) for developers are so low that good talent will simply not be interested in your offer, especially if you are a small company (in which case you can at least play the "job security" card, which I think has a lot of weight here). Setting up shop or working as a freelancer just pays so much better.
agopaul 5y ago
Well, that feels like a gross oversimplification. Other countries have tax brackets not too different from Italy's (eg. Germany), and Italy is not too high in the charts of cost of labour. Economists would argue that it's a mixture of things: high taxes, low productivity, broken justice system, slow and intricate bureaucracy that does not really work, etc. I bet that if Italy's economy would be based on high value-added industries (like France and Germany), less people would complain about high taxes.
- qsort 5y ago
  > high taxes, low productivity, broken justice system, slow and intricate bureaucracy that does not really work All of those things are absolutely true. I mentioned taxes because taxation at 46% of the GDP (pre-covid) is just ridicolous.
  - toqy 5y ago
    I don’t know why you guys want to be America so bad. Nobody I personally know that has had the chance to move to the EU has ever returned. Roughly a sample size of 5, but you get the point.
    - wil421 5y ago
      Everyone I know has returned. Sample size of ~8.
      - toqy 5y ago
        It’s also not the general consensus I find by reading peoples experiences across various platforms online. I went to school for a year in Germany and greatly enjoyed it. Of course I expect a different opinion from the top 3% income tech bro libertarian bent of the HN user base. But I haven’t seen a compelling reason here to think life for the average American is better than it is for someone in the EU.
        5y ago
HWR_14 5y ago
> My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make. That's not horrifically abnormal. A 2x multiplier on salary is considered standard in the US for the cost to an employer. If you make 20% less than a US counterpart, the company is breaking even.