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The position is understandable because Russia is playing a Grand Strategy Game in the past, and doesn't want the enemy ( NATO) to be at all their borders. Justi
by sofixa 5y ago
The position is understandable because Russia is playing a Grand Strategy Game in the past, and doesn't want the enemy ( NATO) to be at all their borders. Justified? Right? Humane? Absolutely not.
- watwut 5y agoThat is not understandable. "I don't like nato at the border, therefore I will push my border toward nato". Russian "nato is ennemy" exists, because Russia wants nato be ennemy. It prevents further expansion.
- hef19898 5y agoOf those two, Russia and NATO, the only expansion since the end of the cold war and the fall of the USSR was done by NATO. That's just a historical fact. Which doesn't justify anything, but explains a lot. All that is purely academic now so, with people in Ukraine dying over this shit.
- watwut 5y agoAnd Nato expansion was done by allowing coutries who wanted to do join Nato to go in. Yes, some of their motivation was to prevent Russia to attempt to expand again into their borders. > All that is purely academic now so, with people in Ukraine dying over this shit. That is not purely academic. Framing what Russia is doing now as kinda similar to Czech voluntary joining Nato is word class propaganda. It is in fact a lie.
- hef19898 5y agoNot sure where I compared the NATO expansion, a peaceful one, to Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. All I'm saying is that Russia, pretty much since German reunification, worried about NATO expansion to the East. And personally, I get that. After all, NATO and the USSR (along the Warsaw Pact) used to be sworn enemies for decades by then. This escalation started decades ago, and was totally foreseeable. And yes, the discussion about the root causes, what-ifs and past errors becomes pointless once bullets fly and people start to die.
- watwut 5y ago> After all, NATO and the USSR (along the Warsaw Pact) used to be sworn enemies for decades by then. USSR was literally Russia + occupied countries. Saying it is understandable is like saying it would be understandable for Germany to attack Poland and France again, because Third Reich went that far too.
- hef19898 5y agoPart of the reason why the German (traditionally Prussian) military elite supported the Nazis was exactly that, the loss of previously Prussian (or German) territory. And not territory that was invaded but couldn't be held. Again, I am not defending Putin or Russia here.
- CamperBob2 5y agoNot sure where I compared the NATO expansion, a peaceful one, to Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. Perhaps it was when you said, "Of those two, Russia and NATO, the only expansion since the end of the cold war and the fall of the USSR was done by NATO."
- icelancer 5y agoPutin already believes he shares a border with NATO. Ukraine is not independent in his mind. Foundations of Geopolitics explains in depth what modern Russian foreign policy is aiming for.
- hef19898 5y agoWell, he does. With the Baltic states.
- watwut 5y agoThat would be correct belief. Russia shares border with Estonia and Latvia. If he manage to occupy whole of Ukraine, he will share border with Poland, Slovakia and Romania too.
- 988747 5y agoRussia already has border with Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast
- RobertoG 5y agoSome question that nobody is asking is, "what's the role of NATO?" The historical original reason for its existence have disappeared, so what is it for now?
- pbourke 5y ago> The historical original reason for its existence have disappeared It seems that we are being reminded that it has not.
- NmAmDa 5y agoThen invading Ukraine wouldn't make Russia getting more borders with more NATO members whose now would be very angry about russia and will do whatever they could to make things difficult?
- hef19898 5y agoYes, but it wouldn't be Russian territory would it? Despite all of Putin's talk about Ukraine being Russian (bullshit by the way even if some Eastern portions seem to be more pro-Russia the Ukraine's west), I doubt Putin would make it formally part of Russia. But even if he did, the new NATO-Russia border would be further West.