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I agree that solar/wind price points have massively gone down but how is storage a solved problem? I have only seen research projects in this field, is there an

I agree that solar/wind price points have massively gone down but how is storage a solved problem? I have only seen research projects in this field, is there anyone who has commercially deployed an energy storage solution? (other than hydro projects)

VBprogrammer 5y ago
I don't think it is correct. Offshore wind is cost competitive with fossil fuels in the UK. However, if you include storage I believe this cost balloons significantly. That said, there are significant grid scale batteries coming online. The largest of these in California is 1.2GWh. By comparison the UK has about 30GWh of pumped storage.
otherme123 5y ago
This short read should answer your questions: https://www.energy-storage.news/battery-storage-at-us20-mwh-breaking-down-low-cost-solar-plus-storage-ppas-in-the-usa/ https://www.energy-storage.news/battery-storage-at-us20-mwh-... It seems that we are at the turning point.
RobertoG 5y ago
These look almost there (I know, I know, "almost"): https://ambri.com/ https://ambri.com/ (liquid metal battery) https://www.hydrostor.ca/ https://www.hydrostor.ca/ (compressed air)
ncmncm 5y ago
The only problems we have with storage are (1) determining which will end up cheapest, or has the most valuable side benefits, and (2) building out. Hydrogen, anhydrous ammonia, and liquified air all produce a valuable industrial product once the tanks are full. Used to be their round-trip efficiency was considered too low, but with solar panels getting dirt cheap, just putting up more panels accommodates almost any conceivable loss. Likewise for long-distance high-voltage transmission lines; China is even building cables to Chile (!) for winter power from desert panel farms. Factories for industrial amounts of iron-air batteries are already under construction, and will be in full production by end of next year. It turns out that pumped hydro, the most mature and efficient current method, has far more potential than generally assumed. A regular hydro power dam has to be in a river valley with a big watershed area. But for hydro storage, all you need is a penstock up to a depression in the hills, no watershed or river needed. There are millions of those. Even if you build a dam along one end, it's cheap. And you can float solar panels on it, where they will reduce evaporation and also run more efficiently. Storage is a solved problem. We don't have much of it yet just because a renewable dollar is today better spent on a panel or turbine, and because cost for storage is falling even faster than for solar panels. Wait a bit, get more for the same money.
- p1mrx 5y ago
  > China is even building cables to Chile (!) Where did you read this? China is 18000 km from Chile, so this seems really unlikely.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    I doubt it will end up built. But losses would only be like 50% with current tech, which is actually tolerable nowadays because solar panels are so cheap.
epistasis 5y ago
These are somewhat old stats: > One growing solution to this, Bolinger said, is the addition of batteries to utility scale solar projects. While adding storage can increase the PPA price from $5-$20/MWh depending on the size and duration of the battery, Bolinger said, they are growing in popularity. Of 460 GW of solar projects in queues around the nation as of 2020, 160 GW included a battery. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/developers-increasingly-pair-batteries-with-utility-scale-solar-to-combat-d/608117/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/developers-increasingly-pai... We are right at the inflection point of deployment, where projects are cheaper with storage than without, so the amount of projects with storage is going to skyrocket very soon. The thing that makes it cheaper to include storage is lowering of prices during peak production hours, or even curtailment. So after a state gets > ~10% or so of their energy from solar you will see far more storage. Standalone, for-profit batteries are also becoming common these days, especially on highly-renewable grids that are purely profit driven, like Texas' ERCOT grid. And ERCOT is purely pay-for-energy, so deploying a battery there requires analysis of the arbitrage opportunities, and understanding the grid congestion, etc. Here's a small battery deployment, but the interesting thing was this current analysis of arbitrage market depth: > According to John Hancock’s Andrew Mazze, the first hour of energy arbitrage is the most valuable in ERCOT’s market construct and adding extra hours of storage does not justify the extra capital cost required. “I don’t need four hours to maximise the value of the battery [in Texas], you can get 90% of the value with much less capital cost, with a one or two-hour battery [system],” he said. https://www.energy-storage.news/texas-broad-reach-power-brings-200mw-of-battery-storage-plants-online/ https://www.energy-storage.news/texas-broad-reach-power-brin...

VBprogrammer 5y ago

I don't think it is correct. Offshore wind is cost competitive with fossil fuels in the UK. However, if you include storage I believe this cost balloons significantly. That said, there are significant grid scale batteries coming online. The largest of these in California is 1.2GWh. By comparison the UK has about 30GWh of pumped storage.

otherme123 5y ago

This short read should answer your questions: https://www.energy-storage.news/battery-storage-at-us20-mwh-breaking-down-low-cost-solar-plus-storage-ppas-in-the-usa/ https://www.energy-storage.news/battery-storage-at-us20-mwh-... It seems that we are at the turning point.

RobertoG 5y ago

These look almost there (I know, I know, "almost"): https://ambri.com/ https://ambri.com/ (liquid metal battery) https://www.hydrostor.ca/ https://www.hydrostor.ca/ (compressed air)

ncmncm 5y ago

The only problems we have with storage are (1) determining which will end up cheapest, or has the most valuable side benefits, and (2) building out. Hydrogen, anhydrous ammonia, and liquified air all produce a valuable industrial product once the tanks are full. Used to be their round-trip efficiency was considered too low, but with solar panels getting dirt cheap, just putting up more panels accommodates almost any conceivable loss. Likewise for long-distance high-voltage transmission lines; China is even building cables to Chile (!) for winter power from desert panel farms. Factories for industrial amounts of iron-air batteries are already under construction, and will be in full production by end of next year. It turns out that pumped hydro, the most mature and efficient current method, has far more potential than generally assumed. A regular hydro power dam has to be in a river valley with a big watershed area. But for hydro storage, all you need is a penstock up to a depression in the hills, no watershed or river needed. There are millions of those. Even if you build a dam along one end, it's cheap. And you can float solar panels on it, where they will reduce evaporation and also run more efficiently. Storage is a solved problem. We don't have much of it yet just because a renewable dollar is today better spent on a panel or turbine, and because cost for storage is falling even faster than for solar panels. Wait a bit, get more for the same money.

p1mrx 5y ago
> China is even building cables to Chile (!) Where did you read this? China is 18000 km from Chile, so this seems really unlikely.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  I doubt it will end up built. But losses would only be like 50% with current tech, which is actually tolerable nowadays because solar panels are so cheap.

epistasis 5y ago

These are somewhat old stats: > One growing solution to this, Bolinger said, is the addition of batteries to utility scale solar projects. While adding storage can increase the PPA price from $5-$20/MWh depending on the size and duration of the battery, Bolinger said, they are growing in popularity. Of 460 GW of solar projects in queues around the nation as of 2020, 160 GW included a battery. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/developers-increasingly-pair-batteries-with-utility-scale-solar-to-combat-d/608117/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/developers-increasingly-pai... We are right at the inflection point of deployment, where projects are cheaper with storage than without, so the amount of projects with storage is going to skyrocket very soon. The thing that makes it cheaper to include storage is lowering of prices during peak production hours, or even curtailment. So after a state gets > ~10% or so of their energy from solar you will see far more storage. Standalone, for-profit batteries are also becoming common these days, especially on highly-renewable grids that are purely profit driven, like Texas' ERCOT grid. And ERCOT is purely pay-for-energy, so deploying a battery there requires analysis of the arbitrage opportunities, and understanding the grid congestion, etc. Here's a small battery deployment, but the interesting thing was this current analysis of arbitrage market depth: > According to John Hancock’s Andrew Mazze, the first hour of energy arbitrage is the most valuable in ERCOT’s market construct and adding extra hours of storage does not justify the extra capital cost required. “I don’t need four hours to maximise the value of the battery [in Texas], you can get 90% of the value with much less capital cost, with a one or two-hour battery [system],” he said. https://www.energy-storage.news/texas-broad-reach-power-brings-200mw-of-battery-storage-plants-online/ https://www.energy-storage.news/texas-broad-reach-power-brin...