7 ms·

Am I correct in saying that Estonia is categorizing this as a threat to their security therefore requesting the rest of Nato to consider this an attack on a mem

by anm89 5y ago

Am I correct in saying that Estonia is categorizing this as a threat to their security therefore requesting the rest of Nato to consider this an attack on a member?

zokier 5y ago
> I assure all the people of Estonia that there is no direct military threat to Estonia and that the situation in Estonia and at our external border is calm," Kallas [Estonias PM] emphasised.
- pyuser583 5y ago
  I think the concern is a gigantic flood of refugees.
  - snemvalts 5y ago
    Estonian here, our society is unequivocally happy to take them. Most will probably go to Poland and surrounding countries of Ukraine first though.
drsim 5y ago
No
vegai_ 5y ago
No, that's article 5. This is just(?) a consultation request.
hef19898 5y ago
They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan), if Western-style democracies don't want to loose their freedoms they have to act. Appeasement usually doesn't work with expansionist powers.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  > Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan) Can you expand on this? I'm entirely unable to understand why Russia after the cold war didn't become like any other European country and aimed to join the EU etc.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Because Russia has a complicated history. Democracy is a lot of work
    - hnbad 5y ago
      Considering the EU currently includes at least one literal dictatorship and NATO includes Turkey, I think pretending this has anything to do with morals and shared values is a bit dishonest.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - int_19h 5y ago
    It actually did consider joining the EU, and even NATO at one point, but it wasn't taken seriously by either. The NATO intervention in Kosovo was also a major stumbling block. Internally, democratic reforms in the 90s became associated with 1) corruption far worse than Soviets had, and 2) right-wing economic measures ("liberalization") that messed up the economy and created a lot of hardship for the population at the time. The very words "democrat" and "liberal" became profanities for some. So when Putin appeared, the popular sentiment in the country already in favor of a "strong hand" for a while. He only needed to fit the image, which he did quite easily with his KGB background. After that, he gradually deconstructed the civil society, starting with free press.

by anm89 5y ago

Am I correct in saying that Estonia is categorizing this as a threat to their security therefore requesting the rest of Nato to consider this an attack on a member?

zokier 5y ago

> I assure all the people of Estonia that there is no direct military threat to Estonia and that the situation in Estonia and at our external border is calm," Kallas [Estonias PM] emphasised.

pyuser583 5y ago
I think the concern is a gigantic flood of refugees.
- snemvalts 5y ago
  Estonian here, our society is unequivocally happy to take them. Most will probably go to Poland and surrounding countries of Ukraine first though.

drsim 5y ago

vegai_ 5y ago

No, that's article 5. This is just(?) a consultation request.

hef19898 5y ago

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan), if Western-style democracies don't want to loose their freedoms they have to act. Appeasement usually doesn't work with expansionist powers.

ajmurmann 5y ago
> Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan) Can you expand on this? I'm entirely unable to understand why Russia after the cold war didn't become like any other European country and aimed to join the EU etc.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Because Russia has a complicated history. Democracy is a lot of work
  - hnbad 5y ago
    Considering the EU currently includes at least one literal dictatorship and NATO includes Turkey, I think pretending this has anything to do with morals and shared values is a bit dishonest.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- int_19h 5y ago
  It actually did consider joining the EU, and even NATO at one point, but it wasn't taken seriously by either. The NATO intervention in Kosovo was also a major stumbling block. Internally, democratic reforms in the 90s became associated with 1) corruption far worse than Soviets had, and 2) right-wing economic measures ("liberalization") that messed up the economy and created a lot of hardship for the population at the time. The very words "democrat" and "liberal" became profanities for some. So when Putin appeared, the popular sentiment in the country already in favor of a "strong hand" for a while. He only needed to fit the image, which he did quite easily with his KGB background. After that, he gradually deconstructed the civil society, starting with free press.