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> real informed consent How many people getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into? A credit card? The people buying GME stock... do they really

> real informed consent How many people getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into? A credit card? The people buying GME stock... do they really understand what's going on?

ketralnis 5y ago
Two things can be bad and you're allowed to try to fix one of them even while the other one is still bad
SolarNet 5y ago
I mean you have a good point. Which is why people should be afforded a basic income and guaranteed housing, so they can't be exploited like this.
manquer 5y ago
Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places? I don't really wish to argue your examples that all lead to financial ruin( arguably easier to reverse in life) is definitely worse than the social stigma and mental health damage the way revenge or commercial porn can have , there better examples you could have used[1]. However it doesn't matter if something else is just as worse or exists and also exploitative[2], that has no bearing on how porn should be better handled. [1] Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument - informed medical consent , most patients are neither in a mental state to give informed consent nor they have subject matter expertise to do so. Decisions can be fatal or have irreversible impact on your life [2] Non ETF investing definitely needs to be gated with some certification/ educational course on risks especially for derivatives trading, it should also cover crypto , we already have some gating for accredited investors, but this is not relevant for this discussion.
- chrononaut 5y ago
  > Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places? >... > Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument ... Not OP, but I think you might be over-analyzing their comment. I am interpreting their short comment as opening a thread of conversation on the notion of what "real informed consent" means, and adding other circumstances where an outsider would also reasonably expect informed consent, yet people find themselves in undesired circumstances. That's it, as that's all that's written.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Yeah, I read it as more pointing out that "real informed consent" sounds a bit like a No True Scotsman fallacy. "I have consent right here, the actor signed a literal release form." "But that's not real, informed consent."
    - manquer 5y ago
      Perfect understanding can not be achieved yes also defining what is ideal consent is hard and arbitrary, that shouldn't mean we abandon any hope of improving current state of consent which is not effective. To improve informed consent say for trading[1], a basic training course required by SEC on risks and options would go long way for a lot of people to understand how derivatives work before allowing them to open account in Robinhood style apps, this could be even be extended for crypto and NFTs. It could be limits based rather than hard blocks. Schools could include such material to educate kids. Speculating and losing money in today's gamified simple UX apps like Robinhood is attracting a ton of people who cannot afford to loose their money and don't really understand the basics of the market, it wasn't a problem when you had to go through a broker who would advise you a bit or use high end Bloomberg terminal . The next market correction/crash is going to be very painful for many people who cannot afford to loose that money. [1] I don't know what would work for Porn, trading is lot easier to solve.
  - manquer 5y ago
    Perhaps I should have given OP the benefit of the doubt , maybe if he had elaborated more it would have helped. Online forums even here has made me jaded with these subtle what about it arguments you see constantly.
vkou 5y ago
> A credit card? Most people, I'd say. > getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into Also most people, I'd say. It may not be the best choice for them if they had a magic omniscient oracle, but most people can understand the concept that they need to pay $XYZW/month for the next 25 years if they don't want to lose most of the value of their house. Now, if your example was of 18-year olds with zero life experience suckered in by shitty colleges that promise the world, and deliver nothing but misery...

> real informed consent How many people getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into? A credit card? The people buying GME stock... do they really understand what's going on?

ketralnis 5y ago

Two things can be bad and you're allowed to try to fix one of them even while the other one is still bad

SolarNet 5y ago

I mean you have a good point. Which is why people should be afforded a basic income and guaranteed housing, so they can't be exploited like this.

manquer 5y ago

Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places? I don't really wish to argue your examples that all lead to financial ruin( arguably easier to reverse in life) is definitely worse than the social stigma and mental health damage the way revenge or commercial porn can have , there better examples you could have used[1]. However it doesn't matter if something else is just as worse or exists and also exploitative[2], that has no bearing on how porn should be better handled. [1] Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument - informed medical consent , most patients are neither in a mental state to give informed consent nor they have subject matter expertise to do so. Decisions can be fatal or have irreversible impact on your life [2] Non ETF investing definitely needs to be gated with some certification/ educational course on risks especially for derivatives trading, it should also cover crypto , we already have some gating for accredited investors, but this is not relevant for this discussion.

chrononaut 5y ago
> Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places? >... > Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument ... Not OP, but I think you might be over-analyzing their comment. I am interpreting their short comment as opening a thread of conversation on the notion of what "real informed consent" means, and adding other circumstances where an outsider would also reasonably expect informed consent, yet people find themselves in undesired circumstances. That's it, as that's all that's written.
- fastball 5y ago
  Yeah, I read it as more pointing out that "real informed consent" sounds a bit like a No True Scotsman fallacy. "I have consent right here, the actor signed a literal release form." "But that's not real, informed consent."
  - manquer 5y ago
    Perfect understanding can not be achieved yes also defining what is ideal consent is hard and arbitrary, that shouldn't mean we abandon any hope of improving current state of consent which is not effective. To improve informed consent say for trading[1], a basic training course required by SEC on risks and options would go long way for a lot of people to understand how derivatives work before allowing them to open account in Robinhood style apps, this could be even be extended for crypto and NFTs. It could be limits based rather than hard blocks. Schools could include such material to educate kids. Speculating and losing money in today's gamified simple UX apps like Robinhood is attracting a ton of people who cannot afford to loose their money and don't really understand the basics of the market, it wasn't a problem when you had to go through a broker who would advise you a bit or use high end Bloomberg terminal . The next market correction/crash is going to be very painful for many people who cannot afford to loose that money. [1] I don't know what would work for Porn, trading is lot easier to solve.
- manquer 5y ago
  Perhaps I should have given OP the benefit of the doubt , maybe if he had elaborated more it would have helped. Online forums even here has made me jaded with these subtle what about it arguments you see constantly.

vkou 5y ago

> A credit card? Most people, I'd say. > getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into Also most people, I'd say. It may not be the best choice for them if they had a magic omniscient oracle, but most people can understand the concept that they need to pay $XYZW/month for the next 25 years if they don't want to lose most of the value of their house. Now, if your example was of 18-year olds with zero life experience suckered in by shitty colleges that promise the world, and deliver nothing but misery...