7 ms·

Then why was there a mass exodus during the height of WFH? Data seems to show that people pay that premium to reduce commute time. Let's not forget full remote

by viro 5y ago

Then why was there a mass exodus during the height of WFH? Data seems to show that people pay that premium to reduce commute time. Let's not forget full remote was a lot harder to get before covid.

quantumwannabe 5y ago
That's because the HN urbanist crowd is a very small and vocal minority. The vast majority of people WANT to live in suburban or rural areas. Only 19% of Americans want to live in a dense urban environment. [1] [1] https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-are-less-likely-than-before-covid-19-to-want-to-live-in-cities-more-likely-to-prefer-suburbs/psdt_12-16-21_covid-community0_0/ https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-a...
- bluGill 5y ago
  People have no idea what they really want. They however know how they live now, so when asked they will say they don't want to change. Where someone lives is a compromise. Everyone wants the best of ALL words: the dense urban area with a subway entrance on the same street, plenty of shopping and other entertainment. They also want a ski lift up a mountain, finish your day ski day in your own backyard, and a tropical beach in the front yard, among the other benefits of rural living. That is physically impossible no matter how much money you have, so you make the best of what you can get even though it cannot be perfect. With the current situation of the US subrubs are the best compromise, but as things change different compromises become better. Right now dense areas are a lot more expensive for a lot less space, and often that space comes with the problems of living in a very old building. Note that change will not happen overnight. Even if 30000 square foot apartments (intentionally be absurdly large to make the point) in neighborhoods with good schools was free it would take a lot of time for people to move even though the rent savings would allow for more than enough other lifestyle changes as to make it a better compromise for most people.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > Where someone lives is a compromise. Yup, it's generally just a balancing of priorities and trade offs. For me, having to drive everywhere I need to go would make me really sad, so I chose an urban environment, in a neighborhood where there's a good mix of residential and commercial, that is decently well-connected to public transit. But that means I have to deal with more noise, crime, and homelessness, and don't get to have a yard, despite higher living costs. But that's my trade off, and others don't prioritize the same things I do.
    - dsizzle 5y ago
      Yep, and the costs is good summary of where the compromises balance out on average. Since urban areas cost more, it's fair to say people prefer urban areas more.
      - bluGill 5y ago
        Supply and demand come into play too. It only takes a slight imbalance to drive costs up. That is if there are 1000 units in an area and 1001 families (counting roommates and single people living alone as families) want a unit then the price will go up until someone is no longer willing/able to pay it.
  - quantumwannabe 5y ago
    The numbers in the survey are linked are where people want to live, not where people currently live. More urban residents want to move to the suburbs/rural areas than vice-versa. 60% of Americans prefer living a a community with larger houses and having to drive miles to get to school, stores, and restaurants versus having smaller houses and businesses within walking distance. Urban residents are divided almost evenly and 49% of them would prefer to drive miles to get to businesses if it meant that they could live in a large house. [1] I suspect the discrepancy with the previous survey is because both scenarios had the participants living in houses and if they were asked to pick a walkable apartment community or the car-dependent house community the number of people who would pick the denser community would be lower. The data is clear, more people prefer the suburban and rural car dependent lifestyles than the walkable urban lifestyle. Making arguments that people just don't know what they want is incredibly condescending and controlling. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/26/more-americans-now-say-they-prefer-a-community-with-big-houses-even-if-local-amenities-are-farther-away/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/26/more-americ...
- dsizzle 5y ago
  That survey didn't ask respondents to ignore price, so it's not simply revealing what they want. Urban areas cost more and this was presumably considered in these responses. Even if the responses were the same ignoring prices, I would probably put more weight on the market prices (i.e what people actually do and the resources they devote to it). Why do urban areas cost more and have a lot of people if people don't actually want it?
  - quantumwannabe 5y ago
    The price per square foot may be higher in the city, but people often spend more in total on housing in the suburbs. For example, someone who moves from a small urban apartment to a large house in a nearby suburb is likely spending more, and they do it because they prefer living in the house over having more money in their bank account.

by viro 5y ago

Then why was there a mass exodus during the height of WFH? Data seems to show that people pay that premium to reduce commute time. Let's not forget full remote was a lot harder to get before covid.

quantumwannabe 5y ago

That's because the HN urbanist crowd is a very small and vocal minority. The vast majority of people WANT to live in suburban or rural areas. Only 19% of Americans want to live in a dense urban environment. [1] [1] https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-are-less-likely-than-before-covid-19-to-want-to-live-in-cities-more-likely-to-prefer-suburbs/psdt_12-16-21_covid-community0_0/ https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-a...

bluGill 5y ago
People have no idea what they really want. They however know how they live now, so when asked they will say they don't want to change. Where someone lives is a compromise. Everyone wants the best of ALL words: the dense urban area with a subway entrance on the same street, plenty of shopping and other entertainment. They also want a ski lift up a mountain, finish your day ski day in your own backyard, and a tropical beach in the front yard, among the other benefits of rural living. That is physically impossible no matter how much money you have, so you make the best of what you can get even though it cannot be perfect. With the current situation of the US subrubs are the best compromise, but as things change different compromises become better. Right now dense areas are a lot more expensive for a lot less space, and often that space comes with the problems of living in a very old building. Note that change will not happen overnight. Even if 30000 square foot apartments (intentionally be absurdly large to make the point) in neighborhoods with good schools was free it would take a lot of time for people to move even though the rent savings would allow for more than enough other lifestyle changes as to make it a better compromise for most people.
- kelnos 5y ago
  > Where someone lives is a compromise. Yup, it's generally just a balancing of priorities and trade offs. For me, having to drive everywhere I need to go would make me really sad, so I chose an urban environment, in a neighborhood where there's a good mix of residential and commercial, that is decently well-connected to public transit. But that means I have to deal with more noise, crime, and homelessness, and don't get to have a yard, despite higher living costs. But that's my trade off, and others don't prioritize the same things I do.
  - dsizzle 5y ago
    Yep, and the costs is good summary of where the compromises balance out on average. Since urban areas cost more, it's fair to say people prefer urban areas more.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Supply and demand come into play too. It only takes a slight imbalance to drive costs up. That is if there are 1000 units in an area and 1001 families (counting roommates and single people living alone as families) want a unit then the price will go up until someone is no longer willing/able to pay it.
- quantumwannabe 5y ago
  The numbers in the survey are linked are where people want to live, not where people currently live. More urban residents want to move to the suburbs/rural areas than vice-versa. 60% of Americans prefer living a a community with larger houses and having to drive miles to get to school, stores, and restaurants versus having smaller houses and businesses within walking distance. Urban residents are divided almost evenly and 49% of them would prefer to drive miles to get to businesses if it meant that they could live in a large house. [1] I suspect the discrepancy with the previous survey is because both scenarios had the participants living in houses and if they were asked to pick a walkable apartment community or the car-dependent house community the number of people who would pick the denser community would be lower. The data is clear, more people prefer the suburban and rural car dependent lifestyles than the walkable urban lifestyle. Making arguments that people just don't know what they want is incredibly condescending and controlling. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/26/more-americans-now-say-they-prefer-a-community-with-big-houses-even-if-local-amenities-are-farther-away/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/26/more-americ...
dsizzle 5y ago
That survey didn't ask respondents to ignore price, so it's not simply revealing what they want. Urban areas cost more and this was presumably considered in these responses. Even if the responses were the same ignoring prices, I would probably put more weight on the market prices (i.e what people actually do and the resources they devote to it). Why do urban areas cost more and have a lot of people if people don't actually want it?
- quantumwannabe 5y ago
  The price per square foot may be higher in the city, but people often spend more in total on housing in the suburbs. For example, someone who moves from a small urban apartment to a large house in a nearby suburb is likely spending more, and they do it because they prefer living in the house over having more money in their bank account.