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I would question any evidence of its "much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools

I would question any evidence of its "much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles." The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true. If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops. The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public.

nickff 5y ago
>" The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true." Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. >"If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops." In general, the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. The people doing youtube videos are often ex-dealership mechanics, who have a lot of experience with older models, and are usually better than the current dealership staff (on the older models). >"The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. " There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. I don't think this necessarily means the items are dangerous, but it does mean you should consider your maintenance schedule and provider when making a purchase decision.
- protomyth 5y ago
  There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. The manufactures of aircraft engines are not doing the service on those engines. I would be hard pressed to think of an airline that gets GE and its ilk to service the engines. the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. Not sure where this comes from, but its definitly not my experience owning a Kia Niro. The whole dealership network is not very good at this newer model at all. Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. Training does not overcome experience. The checklist never beats the experienced mechanic's intuition. But here is the bigger problem, dealerships hire inexperienced mechanics and try to train them up because they refuse to pay for the decent mechanics (well, excepting specialized performance dealerships, but even then). People have to start somewhere, but when it hits the fan you want someone who has been around the block.
  - nickff 5y ago
    I'm not sure what your experience is, but it may not reflect the 'average'. I have experience from working in automotive diagnostics for many years, and am speaking from what I've seen, having spoken and dealt with thousands of dealer and independent mechanics.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    > The manufactures of aircraft engines are not doing the service on those engines. I would be hard pressed to think of an airline that gets GE and its ilk to service the engines. Many airlines and fleet operators of all sizes "lease thrust." The airline signs a contract for X amount of thrust for Y planes, writes a check....and RR, GE, CFM, etc configure the engine's control unit to deliver that amount of thrust (which can be anything up to the engine's rating), and handle everything necessary to assure that the engines go vroom when they're supposed to. That means maintenance/repairs, handling parts/supplies logistics, live monitoring via satellite telemetry and predictive analysis. On your next flight one of the engines could be showing signs of future failure or accelerated wear and the parts will be on their way to the shop, time booked on the mechanics schedules, and airline alerted to the plane coming out of service for X amount of time to accommodate the repair, before the plane is even half-way to its destination. I don't know why you're speaking so authoritatively on a subject you don't know the first thing about.
thegrimmest 5y ago
> If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. You're basically just setting a ceiling on complexity and prescribing methods of information sharing. Why can't companies use tribal knowledge? Do you think the public doesn't benefit from highly complex technology? Examples of machines that only a small number of people can fix go back centuries.

nickff 5y ago

>" The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true." Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. >"If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops." In general, the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. The people doing youtube videos are often ex-dealership mechanics, who have a lot of experience with older models, and are usually better than the current dealership staff (on the older models). >"The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. " There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. I don't think this necessarily means the items are dangerous, but it does mean you should consider your maintenance schedule and provider when making a purchase decision.

protomyth 5y ago
There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. The manufactures of aircraft engines are not doing the service on those engines. I would be hard pressed to think of an airline that gets GE and its ilk to service the engines. the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. Not sure where this comes from, but its definitly not my experience owning a Kia Niro. The whole dealership network is not very good at this newer model at all. Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. Training does not overcome experience. The checklist never beats the experienced mechanic's intuition. But here is the bigger problem, dealerships hire inexperienced mechanics and try to train them up because they refuse to pay for the decent mechanics (well, excepting specialized performance dealerships, but even then). People have to start somewhere, but when it hits the fan you want someone who has been around the block.
- nickff 5y ago
  I'm not sure what your experience is, but it may not reflect the 'average'. I have experience from working in automotive diagnostics for many years, and am speaking from what I've seen, having spoken and dealt with thousands of dealer and independent mechanics.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  > The manufactures of aircraft engines are not doing the service on those engines. I would be hard pressed to think of an airline that gets GE and its ilk to service the engines. Many airlines and fleet operators of all sizes "lease thrust." The airline signs a contract for X amount of thrust for Y planes, writes a check....and RR, GE, CFM, etc configure the engine's control unit to deliver that amount of thrust (which can be anything up to the engine's rating), and handle everything necessary to assure that the engines go vroom when they're supposed to. That means maintenance/repairs, handling parts/supplies logistics, live monitoring via satellite telemetry and predictive analysis. On your next flight one of the engines could be showing signs of future failure or accelerated wear and the parts will be on their way to the shop, time booked on the mechanics schedules, and airline alerted to the plane coming out of service for X amount of time to accommodate the repair, before the plane is even half-way to its destination. I don't know why you're speaking so authoritatively on a subject you don't know the first thing about.

thegrimmest 5y ago

> If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. You're basically just setting a ceiling on complexity and prescribing methods of information sharing. Why can't companies use tribal knowledge? Do you think the public doesn't benefit from highly complex technology? Examples of machines that only a small number of people can fix go back centuries.