7 ms·

> But the problem is both in the courts specifically (because of who the judges are, and who the legislators who write our laws are), and also the wider world.

by tharne 5y ago

> But the problem is both in the courts specifically (because of who the judges are, and who the legislators who write our laws are), and also the wider world. I don't think this is it. It's a matter of resources. Police and courts are already so overburdened that it's hard to get enforcement on anything that isn't practically life or death. Have you or a friend ever had your apartment burglarized or a vehicle stolen? The police will show up, usually after several hours, take a statement, after which you'll never hear from them again. In fact I don't know a single person in real life who was a victim of a burglary or auto theft where the perpetrator was caught, save for those cases like a car jacking where significant violence was involved. When the police and district attorney in any given city in the U.S. are looking at double-digit unsolved homicides and God knows how many unsolved rape cases, I don't think they're going to put a high priority on the fact that there's a naughty movie out there that someone willing filmed themselves in and is now regretful about. This does not mean folks don't believe these things matter, because they do. It's that relative to what the justice system is already dealing with, these things are much less important.

iudqnolq 5y ago
When the NYPD have a guess at who did around 30% of murders, compared to the London police at 90% - and despite more funding than a small army - you have to wonder if the problem is purely resources. In fact, the vast majority of police are assigned to tasks like traffic enforcement, in part because that brings in more reliable revenue. (I'm using "guess at" to refer to clearance rate because if the cops tell a prosecutor they think you murdered someone and the prosecutor says it was obviously someone else so they're not charging you that's generally counted as cleared.)
- volkl48 5y ago
  > When the NYPD have a guess at who did around 30% of murders This is false. NYC homicide clearance rates for 2021 look to be over 70% for the year, with Q4 2021 at 78%. (worst quarter - 55%, best - 86%). https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/clearance.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/cleara... > In fact, the vast majority of police are assigned to tasks like traffic enforcement NYPD is not known exactly known for a particularly large amount of traffic enforcement, to the point that I think you'd find most residents wish they did more of it.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    30% getting away with arguably our worst crime seems like it doesn't bode well for the clearance rate of lesser crimes. I wonder if a large contributor to the higher London clearance rate is related to socioeconomic factors or surveillance laws/systems.
    - vgeek 5y ago
      At a national level, the clearance rate for murders is ~61% per https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-26 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... . Property crimes are <20%. The FBI's UCR Data Explorer used to give you an easy to use breakdown of crimes and clearance rate at the national/state/metro/city level, but unfortunately they redesigned it and now it is both harder to use and presents less data. I guess that is one way to hide data that isn't favorable? There seems to be more emphasis on the danger presented to law enforcement officers, but the #1 cause of death for officers by a large margin, per https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2021 https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2021, has been COVID.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Yeah, I just gave the 30% unsolved in response to the comment about NYC having 70% clearance rates on homicides.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    How much of that clearance rate is railroading innocent people through the justice system and an overworked underfunded public defenders office?
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    You're right, thank you. I mis-remembered, in NY it's major crimes that's around 30%.
- ummonk 5y ago
  Isn't London well known for having way more surveillance cameras than most cities?
  - vkou 5y ago
    Maybe in the early 2000's, when stories about it kept making evening television, but nowadays, the rest of the developed world is roughly on par with it.
rectang 5y ago
I agree that lack of resources is a contributing factor. > I don't think they're going to put a high priority on the fact that there's a naughty movie out there that someone willing filmed themselves in and is now regretful about. This characterization of revenge porn is exactly the victim blaming and minimization of harm inflicted that I was talking about. Consenting to film a sex act is not consenting to have it published to the wider world.
- tharne 5y ago
  > This characterization of revenge porn is exactly the victim blaming and minimization of harm inflicted that I was talking about. While it certainly isn't minimal in terms of the harm inflicted, it very much is minimal compared to the kinds of things that police departments and courts are already dealing with. There's also a weird and very unproductive ethos that's evolved around the concept of victim blaming. Something my not be your fault, but that doesn't mean we're all free to be careless with zero chance of consequences. If I'm walking through a neighborhood at night that I know to be dangerous, it would be very foolish of me to be carrying several thousand dollars of cash on my person. That does not mean it's my fault if I get mugged and lose my money - it's purely the mugger's fault. However, my actions were stupid and I should have known better. Both those things can be true.
  - rectang 5y ago
    Many judges, police, and prosecutors agree with you that the victims "should have known better" and that their cases are not important in the grand scheme of things, which is why it is more difficult at every step of the way to get any sex crime through the court system. Many in the media also agree with you. So do many in the wider society. (Including many in the ridiculously male-dominated HN.) All of these factors contribute to why if a victim even goes to court, not only is the likelihood of actual consequences for the perpetrator absurdly low, but the experience of going down that path will be horrible. Instead of sympathy, they get an avalanche of contempt and shame dumped on them.
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
8n4vidtmkvmk 5y ago
> In fact I don't know a single person in real life who was a victim of a burglary or auto theft where the perpetrator was caught, save for those cases like a car jacking where significant violence was involved. Me! My car was broken into and my audio deck was stolen. I had to report the crime to the police for insurance purposes. I didn't even give a proper description of my deck but the police called me back a few weeks later saying they found it inside a stolen car and mailed it back to me. But maybe violence had occurred, .. maybe some shaddy shit went on with that stolen car that led them to investigate it.
- tharne 5y ago
  That's fantastic that you got your stuff back. I'm very happy that my absolutist statement was proven wrong in this case.

by tharne 5y ago

iudqnolq 5y ago

When the NYPD have a guess at who did around 30% of murders, compared to the London police at 90% - and despite more funding than a small army - you have to wonder if the problem is purely resources. In fact, the vast majority of police are assigned to tasks like traffic enforcement, in part because that brings in more reliable revenue. (I'm using "guess at" to refer to clearance rate because if the cops tell a prosecutor they think you murdered someone and the prosecutor says it was obviously someone else so they're not charging you that's generally counted as cleared.)

volkl48 5y ago
> When the NYPD have a guess at who did around 30% of murders This is false. NYC homicide clearance rates for 2021 look to be over 70% for the year, with Q4 2021 at 78%. (worst quarter - 55%, best - 86%). https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/clearance.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/cleara... > In fact, the vast majority of police are assigned to tasks like traffic enforcement NYPD is not known exactly known for a particularly large amount of traffic enforcement, to the point that I think you'd find most residents wish they did more of it.
- giantg2 5y ago
  30% getting away with arguably our worst crime seems like it doesn't bode well for the clearance rate of lesser crimes. I wonder if a large contributor to the higher London clearance rate is related to socioeconomic factors or surveillance laws/systems.
  - vgeek 5y ago
    At a national level, the clearance rate for murders is ~61% per https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-26 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... . Property crimes are <20%. The FBI's UCR Data Explorer used to give you an easy to use breakdown of crimes and clearance rate at the national/state/metro/city level, but unfortunately they redesigned it and now it is both harder to use and presents less data. I guess that is one way to hide data that isn't favorable? There seems to be more emphasis on the danger presented to law enforcement officers, but the #1 cause of death for officers by a large margin, per https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2021 https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2021, has been COVID.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Yeah, I just gave the 30% unsolved in response to the comment about NYC having 70% clearance rates on homicides.
- scarface74 5y ago
  How much of that clearance rate is railroading innocent people through the justice system and an overworked underfunded public defenders office?
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  You're right, thank you. I mis-remembered, in NY it's major crimes that's around 30%.
ummonk 5y ago
Isn't London well known for having way more surveillance cameras than most cities?
- vkou 5y ago
  Maybe in the early 2000's, when stories about it kept making evening television, but nowadays, the rest of the developed world is roughly on par with it.

rectang 5y ago

I agree that lack of resources is a contributing factor. > I don't think they're going to put a high priority on the fact that there's a naughty movie out there that someone willing filmed themselves in and is now regretful about. This characterization of revenge porn is exactly the victim blaming and minimization of harm inflicted that I was talking about. Consenting to film a sex act is not consenting to have it published to the wider world.

tharne 5y ago
> This characterization of revenge porn is exactly the victim blaming and minimization of harm inflicted that I was talking about. While it certainly isn't minimal in terms of the harm inflicted, it very much is minimal compared to the kinds of things that police departments and courts are already dealing with. There's also a weird and very unproductive ethos that's evolved around the concept of victim blaming. Something my not be your fault, but that doesn't mean we're all free to be careless with zero chance of consequences. If I'm walking through a neighborhood at night that I know to be dangerous, it would be very foolish of me to be carrying several thousand dollars of cash on my person. That does not mean it's my fault if I get mugged and lose my money - it's purely the mugger's fault. However, my actions were stupid and I should have known better. Both those things can be true.
- rectang 5y ago
  Many judges, police, and prosecutors agree with you that the victims "should have known better" and that their cases are not important in the grand scheme of things, which is why it is more difficult at every step of the way to get any sex crime through the court system. Many in the media also agree with you. So do many in the wider society. (Including many in the ridiculously male-dominated HN.) All of these factors contribute to why if a victim even goes to court, not only is the likelihood of actual consequences for the perpetrator absurdly low, but the experience of going down that path will be horrible. Instead of sympathy, they get an avalanche of contempt and shame dumped on them.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago

8n4vidtmkvmk 5y ago

> In fact I don't know a single person in real life who was a victim of a burglary or auto theft where the perpetrator was caught, save for those cases like a car jacking where significant violence was involved. Me! My car was broken into and my audio deck was stolen. I had to report the crime to the police for insurance purposes. I didn't even give a proper description of my deck but the police called me back a few weeks later saying they found it inside a stolen car and mailed it back to me. But maybe violence had occurred, .. maybe some shaddy shit went on with that stolen car that led them to investigate it.

tharne 5y ago
That's fantastic that you got your stuff back. I'm very happy that my absolutist statement was proven wrong in this case.