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Upvoted for the excellent feedback. 1. We'll do a better job defining the term "VR Computer" in our sales page. 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as o

Upvoted for the excellent feedback. 1. We'll do a better job defining the term "VR Computer" in our sales page. 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo. 3. We're going to add some of our comparison charts showcasting the Simula One versus other products/prices. They were included in a recent blog post[2], but aren't featured on our shop. Looks like they would be helpful there as well. 4. We're definitely interested in developing "3D office apps" (or something like a Linux ecosystem for them), but decided that the first step was to get people using our 2D VR app environment first. 5. At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager. The current features of this window manager are outlined here: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula. We plan to add to these features over time (especially including: VR app tiling/window grouping and hand interactions). This should be better showcased in our shop though for sure. Thanks for flagging this. [1] https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/business/png/keyboard_aprons.png https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/business/pn... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197

EvanAnderson 5y ago
I have the opposite opinion as the parent post re: keyboard/mouse. If I'm buying a piece of kit like this I have very strong opinions already re: my input devices. Unless you can make good margin on the keyboard/mouse option I think you're just adding friction and expense to your internal processes to support it. As an aside: I've tried to learn a chording keyboard in the past without much success. In a desktop setting a chording keyboard never increased my productivity enough to make it worth the learning curve. A chording keyboard with this platform would be a much more positive value proposition for me.
- lallysingh 5y ago
  Frankly the keyboard included doesn't matter. Include it as an optional add-on, but _put_it_in_the_picture_. So it looks like a complete system, not just a headset.
- akavel 5y ago
  I'm also very interested in chording keyboards, though never tried one yet - but planning to try building a Chordite DIY prototype Some Day. Also thus interested in any AR / video passthrough features (and their speed), esp. from an angle of whether the VR set would be usable e.g. while walking...?
- bodge5000 5y ago
  I think the included keyboard idea was moreso to make clear that its an actual computer and not just a "VR monitor". As an example, if you saw a monitor for sale and it came with a keyboard, you'd assume that it could be an all-in-one rather than just a monitor (you'd probably do some more research to confirm this obviously), whereas if you just saw a monitor on its own, you'd assume the opposite. Of course in the case of AIO's and monitors its already quite clear what your buying, but in this case those context cues are a lot more important. I'm not sure it needs to actually include a keyboard, and if it does a cheap one would be perfectly fit for the purpose Im describing, but certainly it should be shown with one as much as possible.
Filligree 5y ago
> 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo. I can't use a computer without having a keyboard, and I can't use a keyboard without being able to see it. If you can solve both of those, then I'll seriously consider acquiring one. Perhaps not version one, but version two for sure. Something closer to a traditional keyboard would suit me better, however; I'm not likely to be walking around while wearing this.
- mtsr 5y ago
  Many of the target users are probably perfect touch typists. But according to the product comparison the SimulaVR also has handtracking. I wonder if it'd be possible to track hands and keyboard accurately enough for those who are not perfect touch typists.
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    The Quest 2 can do it with two specific models of keyboards (Logitech K830 and more recently Apple Magic Keyboard), so it should't be outside of the realm possibility.
- zeeb 5y ago
  SimulaVR has a "webcam view" that allows you to see your mouse and keyboard through passthrough video: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view
  - kanetw 5y ago
    Yep, and with our headset we'll have full background replacement. We've tested it internally with two off the shelf cameras but it's not public yet.
- deleted 5y ago
jvanderbot 5y ago
I just want to comment that, my interest in a VR headset is precisely for standard terminal-based editing, except that now the focal point is at infinity and my eyes can relax better. That might be an underappreciated draw. Consider seeing if that holds and including that as a use case. You'd have +1 consumers here and I cannot be alone.
- kanetw 5y ago
  The focal point in our headset is on the order of ~2m. Infinite conjugate adds significant difficulty and basically nobody does this (we tried in our first iteration). But 2m is comfortably far, imo
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    Yeah, that's so much better than the 1m for 14 hrs/day I get here at home.
vineyardmike 5y ago
First, congrats on all the progress you've made. I've been part of your mailing list and watching from the sidelines for a while. I really do hope you succeed, and i love the idea, i just don't have the spare cash to pre-order. > At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager. I don't know all the technical details about Nix and the various VR development SDK/tools available, but when i see something like "it'll use NixOS" when i know NixOS is very opinionated and unique in how one uses it and develops for it, i immediately assume that it is 100% is some engineer on the team's tech pet project technology, and not necessarily the best tool for the job. Is there any reason to use it over eg. Debian/Ubuntu/etc that has a lot more use and people are more familiar with tweaking and developing for it?
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Thanks for following our progress. I think this is a good question. Before getting into "reasons for NixOS", I just want to note that our headset is still an open-source Linux flavored project, which means that if you don't like our choices, you are free to install whatever Linux distro you want on it. =] You'll probably want to use Simula's window manager, but even here there will be other choices as well (xrdesktop, Stardust's display server, and so forth). NixOS is definitely an opinionated distro, at least in terms of how it allows developers to configure a system. However, as builders, we view it as our job to make informed, opinionated choices on what the defaults are. (To be clear, not saying we can never be wrong or learn from these choices). Here are some reasons we chose NixOS as the basis for our VR distro: 1. *NixOS allows us to provide the best support to our users.* Simula itself (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula) is built over nix build tools, and we have the most experience and comfort with that ecosystem. This means we are able to solve other people's issues much easier using our own familarity with the system if things go wrong. 2. *NixOS allows for system rollbacks if something goes wrong.* If either we or a user accidentally torches a headset, NixOS makes it so that all they have to do to get things running again is rollback to the most recently working configuration in the boot benu, and the problem is solved. This is particularly important for a beta/early adopter product like ours, and makes it more manageable for us to support things if things go wrong. 3. *NixOS allows us to iterate faster/release headset updates more quickly.* Using NixOS allows us to push frequent (and non-breaking) system updates much more easily than other distros, which is important for an early/iterative product like ours. 4. *Using Nix[OS] allows our software components to work on other distros.* Building all of our software components over nix allows us to support as many Linux distros as possible. This is important so that we can support, e.g., our Tethered headsets when users connect them to different Linux hosts. It also makes it easier for us to support users who change their Linux distro, but still use some Simula components (e.g., our VR window manager). 5. *A disproportionate number of existing Simula users run NixOS.* Despite NixOS being a "niche" distro, we've noticed a shocking number of people (at least in our Discord) run NixOS already, which makes us more comfortable with the choice.
lallysingh 5y ago
As for keyboard, I'd probably take an ultimate hacking keyboard or a Lenovo with integrated trackpoint. I have no desire to leave the home row.

EvanAnderson 5y ago

I have the opposite opinion as the parent post re: keyboard/mouse. If I'm buying a piece of kit like this I have very strong opinions already re: my input devices. Unless you can make good margin on the keyboard/mouse option I think you're just adding friction and expense to your internal processes to support it. As an aside: I've tried to learn a chording keyboard in the past without much success. In a desktop setting a chording keyboard never increased my productivity enough to make it worth the learning curve. A chording keyboard with this platform would be a much more positive value proposition for me.

lallysingh 5y ago
Frankly the keyboard included doesn't matter. Include it as an optional add-on, but _put_it_in_the_picture_. So it looks like a complete system, not just a headset.
akavel 5y ago
I'm also very interested in chording keyboards, though never tried one yet - but planning to try building a Chordite DIY prototype Some Day. Also thus interested in any AR / video passthrough features (and their speed), esp. from an angle of whether the VR set would be usable e.g. while walking...?
bodge5000 5y ago
I think the included keyboard idea was moreso to make clear that its an actual computer and not just a "VR monitor". As an example, if you saw a monitor for sale and it came with a keyboard, you'd assume that it could be an all-in-one rather than just a monitor (you'd probably do some more research to confirm this obviously), whereas if you just saw a monitor on its own, you'd assume the opposite. Of course in the case of AIO's and monitors its already quite clear what your buying, but in this case those context cues are a lot more important. I'm not sure it needs to actually include a keyboard, and if it does a cheap one would be perfectly fit for the purpose Im describing, but certainly it should be shown with one as much as possible.

Filligree 5y ago

> 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo. I can't use a computer without having a keyboard, and I can't use a keyboard without being able to see it. If you can solve both of those, then I'll seriously consider acquiring one. Perhaps not version one, but version two for sure. Something closer to a traditional keyboard would suit me better, however; I'm not likely to be walking around while wearing this.

mtsr 5y ago
Many of the target users are probably perfect touch typists. But according to the product comparison the SimulaVR also has handtracking. I wonder if it'd be possible to track hands and keyboard accurately enough for those who are not perfect touch typists.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  The Quest 2 can do it with two specific models of keyboards (Logitech K830 and more recently Apple Magic Keyboard), so it should't be outside of the realm possibility.
zeeb 5y ago
SimulaVR has a "webcam view" that allows you to see your mouse and keyboard through passthrough video: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view
- kanetw 5y ago
  Yep, and with our headset we'll have full background replacement. We've tested it internally with two off the shelf cameras but it's not public yet.
deleted 5y ago

jvanderbot 5y ago

I just want to comment that, my interest in a VR headset is precisely for standard terminal-based editing, except that now the focal point is at infinity and my eyes can relax better. That might be an underappreciated draw. Consider seeing if that holds and including that as a use case. You'd have +1 consumers here and I cannot be alone.

kanetw 5y ago
The focal point in our headset is on the order of ~2m. Infinite conjugate adds significant difficulty and basically nobody does this (we tried in our first iteration). But 2m is comfortably far, imo
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  Yeah, that's so much better than the 1m for 14 hrs/day I get here at home.

vineyardmike 5y ago

First, congrats on all the progress you've made. I've been part of your mailing list and watching from the sidelines for a while. I really do hope you succeed, and i love the idea, i just don't have the spare cash to pre-order. > At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager. I don't know all the technical details about Nix and the various VR development SDK/tools available, but when i see something like "it'll use NixOS" when i know NixOS is very opinionated and unique in how one uses it and develops for it, i immediately assume that it is 100% is some engineer on the team's tech pet project technology, and not necessarily the best tool for the job. Is there any reason to use it over eg. Debian/Ubuntu/etc that has a lot more use and people are more familiar with tweaking and developing for it?

georgewsinger 5y ago
Thanks for following our progress. I think this is a good question. Before getting into "reasons for NixOS", I just want to note that our headset is still an open-source Linux flavored project, which means that if you don't like our choices, you are free to install whatever Linux distro you want on it. =] You'll probably want to use Simula's window manager, but even here there will be other choices as well (xrdesktop, Stardust's display server, and so forth). NixOS is definitely an opinionated distro, at least in terms of how it allows developers to configure a system. However, as builders, we view it as our job to make informed, opinionated choices on what the defaults are. (To be clear, not saying we can never be wrong or learn from these choices). Here are some reasons we chose NixOS as the basis for our VR distro: 1. *NixOS allows us to provide the best support to our users.* Simula itself (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula) is built over nix build tools, and we have the most experience and comfort with that ecosystem. This means we are able to solve other people's issues much easier using our own familarity with the system if things go wrong. 2. *NixOS allows for system rollbacks if something goes wrong.* If either we or a user accidentally torches a headset, NixOS makes it so that all they have to do to get things running again is rollback to the most recently working configuration in the boot benu, and the problem is solved. This is particularly important for a beta/early adopter product like ours, and makes it more manageable for us to support things if things go wrong. 3. *NixOS allows us to iterate faster/release headset updates more quickly.* Using NixOS allows us to push frequent (and non-breaking) system updates much more easily than other distros, which is important for an early/iterative product like ours. 4. *Using Nix[OS] allows our software components to work on other distros.* Building all of our software components over nix allows us to support as many Linux distros as possible. This is important so that we can support, e.g., our Tethered headsets when users connect them to different Linux hosts. It also makes it easier for us to support users who change their Linux distro, but still use some Simula components (e.g., our VR window manager). 5. *A disproportionate number of existing Simula users run NixOS.* Despite NixOS being a "niche" distro, we've noticed a shocking number of people (at least in our Discord) run NixOS already, which makes us more comfortable with the choice.

lallysingh 5y ago

As for keyboard, I'd probably take an ultimate hacking keyboard or a Lenovo with integrated trackpoint. I have no desire to leave the home row.