6 ms·

I see a lot of comments on the pricing of this hardware. It's going to be more expensive (for the end user) to build a headset (and FOSS window manager) than a

I see a lot of comments on the pricing of this hardware. It's going to be more expensive (for the end user) to build a headset (and FOSS window manager) than a product like the quest. Meta has a suite of products bringing in capitol by selling user PII. Valve has a distribution platform to offset costs. If you want to see a product that is open end to end and is not part of an ecosystem selling your information, then it has to be funded. I realize most of the people reading this don't want a moral argument for spending $2k-$4k on a HMD, but thats what I am offering. We should have multiple openXR compatible headsets to choose from, and specialized window managers that 'just work' in VR. Fund the FOSS projects you want to see in the world so others will follow.

emptysongglass 5y ago
But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  It is definitely too expensive for broad adoption, but maybe it doesn't need broad adoption? I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    We'll be able to have reviewable prototype units in a few months. Depending on how many critical components (displays, primarily) we have we might be able to set up some way to test it for non-reviewers.
    - gorjusborg 5y ago
      Nice! Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with the project? If so, I love the idea you all are chasing. As a software developer, I've often thought about how great it would be to be able to take my setup with me without having to compromise on display. The current generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
      - kanetw 5y ago
        Yes, I'm the other co-founder (David)
    - addaon 5y ago
      I'd strongly suggest having a public demo day somewhere, with a note dropped on HN and maybe a couple of other target-rich environments. Even just camping outside of Coupa with a couple of headsets for a workday will get a couple hundred people to see the unit, and I suspect that you'll get better conversion for that effort than most other things you could attempt. I'm super, super interested in this type of product, but it's about 4x outside of my casual toy budget. Based on experience with other VR and AR headsets I'm not comfortable putting down the money until I see the optics myself.
- nonplus 5y ago
  Not really, their break even (and by that, I mean ideal bulk pricing of components) for units sold is under 1000 units. The Simula one is not trying to sell 100k units. If you think thats the case, your expectations are wrong. Re (software) development: Yes it will need funding, but it's there right now https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula and is agnostic/works with any openXR headset.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  Simula is working on a paradigm shift of computing. We're looking at the price and comparing it to buying a smartphone or gaming console. The Simula device doesn't aspire to be a secondary device. It wants to be a primary device, replacing your laptop. The closest device in comparison to this one is not a Quest 2 or even a Valve Index. Those are both secondary devices that do not offer anything other than canned, theme-park-like experiences that sit completely aside the rest of your computer. The closest competing device is actually a HoloLens 2. HoloLens with Windows Holographic is the only device on the market that has support for a general purpose computing interface. And HoloLens 2s are still US$3500/ea. Whether you agree a VR computer as a primary device is a good thing is a different issue.
- MisterTea 5y ago
  Same argument was made against Tesla. Now, nearly every auto maker has a more affordable electric car offering because of them.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- reaperducer 5y ago
  But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development. Seems to work for Apple. All they have to do is provide a superior product. That's the hard part.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  For reference, our breakeven sales target is 892 headsets (or $2.4M in sales). We recently made a blog post outlining our unit cost model in more detail.[1] At the time, we were still planning on using Kickstarter, so the model has changed somewhat. We ultimately decided to host our own campaign to save on Kickstarter fees (passing down a $100 discount on headset prices). Also: for an additional headset discount, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697 [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/ https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/
gorjusborg 5y ago
I've spent 2k just on a monitor. I'm more surprised that the quest is so cheap, but then I remember exactly what you said: the quest is not the product, I am the product. Then I remember why I don't use Meta products anymore.
- ganzuul 5y ago
  It is strange that paying for being a product that is sold has become normalized. Then again slavery was common not long ago.
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    Agreed, it is a bit strange, but I do feel like people are slowly getting wise to the swindle. Unfortunately, I think socioeconomic pressures are also pushing people to compromise in ways that are not in their best interest, even if they do get it. In other words, they'll get the 'cheap' product that invades their privacy, sells their data, and shows ads to them, because they don't have the money for a product they own (see: television market).
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    That is right. Being shown a targeted advertisement is exactly the same as being forced to pick cotton in the fields by day under threat of life and limb. As a matter of fact, the real question is whether the slaves suffered even a fraction as much as I did browsing Instagram. An argument could be made that even thinking about the slave trade is inconsiderate when billions are shown ads on Facebook properties today.
    - ganzuul 5y ago
      Nobody thinks that.
- white_dragon88 5y ago
  Firstly what kind of monitor is that? Wtf? Also the cliche of it’s not the product, you are is cute but played out. If you’re getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions, not the individual.
slg 5y ago
This is all true, but it also doesn't mean the that the current high price was the only possible approach. I see decisions made in the design that don't look great from cost-benefit standpoint. For example, this is being marketed mainly as a productivity tool. Wireless is certainly important for gaming when you are moving around in your environment, but people using this are primarily going to be in a stationary position either sitting or lying down. Why do they need the computer in the headset, which makes upgrading impossible, and for it to function completely wirelessly? It seems like prioritizing the integrated computer and the untethered experience increases the cost for little benefit. This is especially true considering this thing likely won't have great battery life so operating completely wirelessly won't be possible for extended periods of time anyway. What would this device cost if the primary design objective was to create an open wired headset and the software to accompany it? Whatever that is, it would be a more attractive value proposition for me personally and therefore likely for other customers too.
- kanetw 5y ago
  It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is detachable, replacable, and can even function independently. The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. Especially with lower-level software like Simula.
  - slg 5y ago
    >It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is... replacable It is only replaceable and upgradable if this company sells these compute modules separately. There is no discussion I saw on that website that they are committing to do this and there is no guarantee they will be around to still sell you one in the future. Even if they do, you are locked into their ecosystem. >The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. I have never used a VR device on Linux and maybe the work involved there would be truly "insane", but I have used a few on Windows and they are basically completely plug and play after you install the software. Although even with the work involved, this seems to be an enthusiast device aimed at techies. If these customers are looking for a frictionless experience, they probably wouldn't be daily driving a Linux machine in the first place.
nsb1 5y ago
I don't have a problem with the price - I have a problem with being sure what I'd be getting for that money. If it was guaranteed to live up to the claims that are being made then it's in the ballpark of a good laptop, which I have no problem dropping all sorts of money on. This device has several potential problems though, that can render it completely unusable rather than a laptop that mostly works fine except for a nit or two: - If it's too heavy/uncomfortable, you can't use it for long enough to warrant switching your compute medium to VR - If the battery doesn't last long enough, then you're tethered to a wall outlet. - If the display has distortion or artifacts, the eyestrain may render it unusable over time. Some of which can be addressed by being able to try before you buy, and the rest will come out in the product reviews....but right now there are no product reviews, and signing up for a preorder at this price is taking a lot on faith. I wish this team all the success in the world, but I'll probably wait for V2.
- kanetw 5y ago
  Yeah, unfortunately that's the annoying thing with preorder products. A fully integrated unit that would be representative of a final device will take a while for sure. My timeline is roughly 2 months for a reviewable VR-only unit, another 1-2 for VR+AR, and then integrate the compute pack.
- riskable 5y ago
  As someone who's used a Quest 2 for hours and hours with a heavy 3rd party head strap, over-the-ear headphones, and a battery pack strapped to my head I wouldn't worry about the weight too much. Even playing intense games where I had to move my head a lot it was never my neck/back that hurt--it was always my arms, haha. That's really going to be the new RSI waiting to happen: Moving your hands in the air constantly. Try this: Pretend you're scrolling a really long web page a little bit at a time by holding your hand in the air (in front of your face) and doing a pinch with your fingers like you're grabbing something, lifting it up, then dropping it again. Do this motion very slowly (like you're reading) for like 10 minutes straight, over and over again. Now do the same thing, pretending you're looking up at a VR "window" or down at one. How do you think your arms will do after existing in this VR environment for hours at a time? :D As long as we can scroll/navigate with the keyboard everything should be good though

emptysongglass 5y ago

But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.

gorjusborg 5y ago
It is definitely too expensive for broad adoption, but maybe it doesn't need broad adoption? I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
- kanetw 5y ago
  We'll be able to have reviewable prototype units in a few months. Depending on how many critical components (displays, primarily) we have we might be able to set up some way to test it for non-reviewers.
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    Nice! Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with the project? If so, I love the idea you all are chasing. As a software developer, I've often thought about how great it would be to be able to take my setup with me without having to compromise on display. The current generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      Yes, I'm the other co-founder (David)
  - addaon 5y ago
    I'd strongly suggest having a public demo day somewhere, with a note dropped on HN and maybe a couple of other target-rich environments. Even just camping outside of Coupa with a couple of headsets for a workday will get a couple hundred people to see the unit, and I suspect that you'll get better conversion for that effort than most other things you could attempt. I'm super, super interested in this type of product, but it's about 4x outside of my casual toy budget. Based on experience with other VR and AR headsets I'm not comfortable putting down the money until I see the optics myself.
nonplus 5y ago
Not really, their break even (and by that, I mean ideal bulk pricing of components) for units sold is under 1000 units. The Simula one is not trying to sell 100k units. If you think thats the case, your expectations are wrong. Re (software) development: Yes it will need funding, but it's there right now https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula and is agnostic/works with any openXR headset.
moron4hire 5y ago
Simula is working on a paradigm shift of computing. We're looking at the price and comparing it to buying a smartphone or gaming console. The Simula device doesn't aspire to be a secondary device. It wants to be a primary device, replacing your laptop. The closest device in comparison to this one is not a Quest 2 or even a Valve Index. Those are both secondary devices that do not offer anything other than canned, theme-park-like experiences that sit completely aside the rest of your computer. The closest competing device is actually a HoloLens 2. HoloLens with Windows Holographic is the only device on the market that has support for a general purpose computing interface. And HoloLens 2s are still US$3500/ea. Whether you agree a VR computer as a primary device is a good thing is a different issue.
MisterTea 5y ago
Same argument was made against Tesla. Now, nearly every auto maker has a more affordable electric car offering because of them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
reaperducer 5y ago
But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development. Seems to work for Apple. All they have to do is provide a superior product. That's the hard part.
georgewsinger 5y ago
For reference, our breakeven sales target is 892 headsets (or $2.4M in sales). We recently made a blog post outlining our unit cost model in more detail.[1] At the time, we were still planning on using Kickstarter, so the model has changed somewhat. We ultimately decided to host our own campaign to save on Kickstarter fees (passing down a $100 discount on headset prices). Also: for an additional headset discount, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697 [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/ https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/

gorjusborg 5y ago

I've spent 2k just on a monitor. I'm more surprised that the quest is so cheap, but then I remember exactly what you said: the quest is not the product, I am the product. Then I remember why I don't use Meta products anymore.

ganzuul 5y ago
It is strange that paying for being a product that is sold has become normalized. Then again slavery was common not long ago.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  Agreed, it is a bit strange, but I do feel like people are slowly getting wise to the swindle. Unfortunately, I think socioeconomic pressures are also pushing people to compromise in ways that are not in their best interest, even if they do get it. In other words, they'll get the 'cheap' product that invades their privacy, sells their data, and shows ads to them, because they don't have the money for a product they own (see: television market).
- renewiltord 5y ago
  That is right. Being shown a targeted advertisement is exactly the same as being forced to pick cotton in the fields by day under threat of life and limb. As a matter of fact, the real question is whether the slaves suffered even a fraction as much as I did browsing Instagram. An argument could be made that even thinking about the slave trade is inconsiderate when billions are shown ads on Facebook properties today.
  - ganzuul 5y ago
    Nobody thinks that.
white_dragon88 5y ago
Firstly what kind of monitor is that? Wtf? Also the cliche of it’s not the product, you are is cute but played out. If you’re getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions, not the individual.

slg 5y ago

This is all true, but it also doesn't mean the that the current high price was the only possible approach. I see decisions made in the design that don't look great from cost-benefit standpoint. For example, this is being marketed mainly as a productivity tool. Wireless is certainly important for gaming when you are moving around in your environment, but people using this are primarily going to be in a stationary position either sitting or lying down. Why do they need the computer in the headset, which makes upgrading impossible, and for it to function completely wirelessly? It seems like prioritizing the integrated computer and the untethered experience increases the cost for little benefit. This is especially true considering this thing likely won't have great battery life so operating completely wirelessly won't be possible for extended periods of time anyway. What would this device cost if the primary design objective was to create an open wired headset and the software to accompany it? Whatever that is, it would be a more attractive value proposition for me personally and therefore likely for other customers too.

kanetw 5y ago
It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is detachable, replacable, and can even function independently. The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. Especially with lower-level software like Simula.
- slg 5y ago
  >It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is... replacable It is only replaceable and upgradable if this company sells these compute modules separately. There is no discussion I saw on that website that they are committing to do this and there is no guarantee they will be around to still sell you one in the future. Even if they do, you are locked into their ecosystem. >The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. I have never used a VR device on Linux and maybe the work involved there would be truly "insane", but I have used a few on Windows and they are basically completely plug and play after you install the software. Although even with the work involved, this seems to be an enthusiast device aimed at techies. If these customers are looking for a frictionless experience, they probably wouldn't be daily driving a Linux machine in the first place.

nsb1 5y ago

I don't have a problem with the price - I have a problem with being sure what I'd be getting for that money. If it was guaranteed to live up to the claims that are being made then it's in the ballpark of a good laptop, which I have no problem dropping all sorts of money on. This device has several potential problems though, that can render it completely unusable rather than a laptop that mostly works fine except for a nit or two: - If it's too heavy/uncomfortable, you can't use it for long enough to warrant switching your compute medium to VR - If the battery doesn't last long enough, then you're tethered to a wall outlet. - If the display has distortion or artifacts, the eyestrain may render it unusable over time. Some of which can be addressed by being able to try before you buy, and the rest will come out in the product reviews....but right now there are no product reviews, and signing up for a preorder at this price is taking a lot on faith. I wish this team all the success in the world, but I'll probably wait for V2.

kanetw 5y ago
Yeah, unfortunately that's the annoying thing with preorder products. A fully integrated unit that would be representative of a final device will take a while for sure. My timeline is roughly 2 months for a reviewable VR-only unit, another 1-2 for VR+AR, and then integrate the compute pack.
riskable 5y ago
As someone who's used a Quest 2 for hours and hours with a heavy 3rd party head strap, over-the-ear headphones, and a battery pack strapped to my head I wouldn't worry about the weight too much. Even playing intense games where I had to move my head a lot it was never my neck/back that hurt--it was always my arms, haha. That's really going to be the new RSI waiting to happen: Moving your hands in the air constantly. Try this: Pretend you're scrolling a really long web page a little bit at a time by holding your hand in the air (in front of your face) and doing a pinch with your fingers like you're grabbing something, lifting it up, then dropping it again. Do this motion very slowly (like you're reading) for like 10 minutes straight, over and over again. Now do the same thing, pretending you're looking up at a VR "window" or down at one. How do you think your arms will do after existing in this VR environment for hours at a time? :D As long as we can scroll/navigate with the keyboard everything should be good though