4 ms·

Care to elaborate? Seems pretty accurate to me.

hutzlibu 5y ago
It basically oversimplifies "right" to selfish ideology and "left" to ideology of "greater good". For once I would argue, it is for the greater good, if "selfish" individual rights are increased - and apart from that, I think using the left right spectrum is not very helpful for anything, but dividing society into tribal thinking.
- onethought 5y ago
  Capitalism, or more specifically inequality created the tribes. Denying their existence is to purposefully avoid looking for a solution. It’s not an ideology of greater good. I mean it literally in the utilitarian sense: left thinking, focusing on improving the plight of wage earners literally effects more people and is a greater good. Improving/preserving wealthy elites will naturally benefit fewer people. These are facts, with evidence. I can go deeper if you find this simplification too blunt. It isn’t overly simplified it. It describes what the left right spectrum means, and yes I’m applied a value judgement, but I can back up my value judgement with facts. I’m not an extremist in my views though, and I will accept democratic processes, and there is benefit to floating around the spectrum, rather than committing to a single point.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "Improving/preserving wealthy elites will naturally benefit fewer people. These are facts, with evidence" You are implying, that it is a fact that right leaning people want to preserve wealthy elites. But this is not, what I heard from right leaning people as their goals. "Capitalism, or more specifically inequality created the tribes." And I believe, tribes existed way before capitalism. So I believe, that you are indeed quite extremist in your ideology, if you know as a fact, that left is good and right is bad. There are many, many different contradicting views and concepts on the right as well on the left. To some I agree, to many I do not. But as an example, the nazis are considered quite right usually. But it is nationalsocialism. The concept of the greater good for the people (of one race). So they are left then? I rather think the whole left right concept is flawed and not helpful.
    - onethought 5y ago
      There are not contradicting views. If you look at them with a lenses of preserving wealth they align quite neatly. I’d like to see a counter example. Nazis are the very definition of preserving the wealth of a few. It’s just you have seen the words “National Socialism” and assumed that meant left. You’ll find the labels are high jacked quite often. But left and right remain more consistent. Are you saying that trying to bring more benefit to wage earners is not good? Could you give an example of right wing policy that wasn’t focused on preserving wealthy elites?
      - sol_invictus 5y ago
        I can give you plenty of left-wing policies that ended in mass genocide. How do you fit that into your mental model?
        onethought 5y ago
        Were they trying to redistribute wealth or consolidate it? Where does genocide fit into anything I’ve said?
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        "It’s just you have seen the words “National Socialism” and assumed that meant left." No, I just happen to live in an area (in germany) with lots of nazis and had to engage with their ideology a lot. There definitely exist anticapitalist, socialist fascist today, as did back then. Those are the ones, that were put down in Nazi germany in 1934 in the Röhm Putsch, so they did not rose to power, but nevertheless exist. They do believe in a socialist aryan society. So the greater good and negating of the individual, but limited to a certain race. So how do they fit in, in the left = altruistic, right = selfish metric? They are not individualists. They are willing to sacrifice themself for Volk und Vaterland. "There are not contradicting views" And with contradicting I meant in general. The socialist pagan Nazis do not really agree with the capitalist, catholic fascist of spain for example, but both are labeld right. While anarchosyndicalist do not really share much with stalinist, yet both are labeled left.
- lifeformed 5y ago
  I mean, it's true if you reinterpret "selfish" as "individualist". At the end of the day its "prioritize concerns of the individual at the expense of society" versus "prioritize concerns of society at the expense of individuals".
  - onethought 5y ago
    I disagree. Because in your statement you are hiding the fact that the “expense of the individuals” is a tiny number compared to the number of “members of society”.
familymart 5y ago

It basically oversimplifies "right" to selfish ideology and "left" to ideology of "greater good". For once I would argue, it is for the greater good, if "selfish" individual rights are increased - and apart from that, I think using the left right spectrum is not very helpful for anything, but dividing society into tribal thinking.

onethought 5y ago
Capitalism, or more specifically inequality created the tribes. Denying their existence is to purposefully avoid looking for a solution. It’s not an ideology of greater good. I mean it literally in the utilitarian sense: left thinking, focusing on improving the plight of wage earners literally effects more people and is a greater good. Improving/preserving wealthy elites will naturally benefit fewer people. These are facts, with evidence. I can go deeper if you find this simplification too blunt. It isn’t overly simplified it. It describes what the left right spectrum means, and yes I’m applied a value judgement, but I can back up my value judgement with facts. I’m not an extremist in my views though, and I will accept democratic processes, and there is benefit to floating around the spectrum, rather than committing to a single point.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Improving/preserving wealthy elites will naturally benefit fewer people. These are facts, with evidence" You are implying, that it is a fact that right leaning people want to preserve wealthy elites. But this is not, what I heard from right leaning people as their goals. "Capitalism, or more specifically inequality created the tribes." And I believe, tribes existed way before capitalism. So I believe, that you are indeed quite extremist in your ideology, if you know as a fact, that left is good and right is bad. There are many, many different contradicting views and concepts on the right as well on the left. To some I agree, to many I do not. But as an example, the nazis are considered quite right usually. But it is nationalsocialism. The concept of the greater good for the people (of one race). So they are left then? I rather think the whole left right concept is flawed and not helpful.
  - onethought 5y ago
    There are not contradicting views. If you look at them with a lenses of preserving wealth they align quite neatly. I’d like to see a counter example. Nazis are the very definition of preserving the wealth of a few. It’s just you have seen the words “National Socialism” and assumed that meant left. You’ll find the labels are high jacked quite often. But left and right remain more consistent. Are you saying that trying to bring more benefit to wage earners is not good? Could you give an example of right wing policy that wasn’t focused on preserving wealthy elites?
    - sol_invictus 5y ago
      I can give you plenty of left-wing policies that ended in mass genocide. How do you fit that into your mental model?
      - onethought 5y ago
        Were they trying to redistribute wealth or consolidate it? Where does genocide fit into anything I’ve said?
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "It’s just you have seen the words “National Socialism” and assumed that meant left." No, I just happen to live in an area (in germany) with lots of nazis and had to engage with their ideology a lot. There definitely exist anticapitalist, socialist fascist today, as did back then. Those are the ones, that were put down in Nazi germany in 1934 in the Röhm Putsch, so they did not rose to power, but nevertheless exist. They do believe in a socialist aryan society. So the greater good and negating of the individual, but limited to a certain race. So how do they fit in, in the left = altruistic, right = selfish metric? They are not individualists. They are willing to sacrifice themself for Volk und Vaterland. "There are not contradicting views" And with contradicting I meant in general. The socialist pagan Nazis do not really agree with the capitalist, catholic fascist of spain for example, but both are labeld right. While anarchosyndicalist do not really share much with stalinist, yet both are labeled left.
lifeformed 5y ago
I mean, it's true if you reinterpret "selfish" as "individualist". At the end of the day its "prioritize concerns of the individual at the expense of society" versus "prioritize concerns of society at the expense of individuals".
- onethought 5y ago
  I disagree. Because in your statement you are hiding the fact that the “expense of the individuals” is a tiny number compared to the number of “members of society”.

familymart 5y ago