4 ms·

> Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Som

> Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Sometimes, people in such situations can indeed start a war for independence. This happened here in Yugoslavia not long ago, in 1991-2001. However, I don't see how's that relevant to Ukraine. The only reason that war has started, and is ongoing for 8 years, is Russian military. For instance, this guy played a major role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin > willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not I'm not sure why Russians soldiers are fighting in the foreign country, but what you said is true for Ukrainians. Unfortunately for them, they can't stop the war. The moment they stop shooting back, Russians will advance further into their land.

EGreg 5y ago
I think that without any Russian army backing them, the separatists would still fight, as soon as their guy Yanukovich was ousted. They freaked out. Other separatists fight. The PKK fights for a separate Kurdish state for example. Catalonians tried to fight for years. Heck, Ukrainian nationalists themselves fought every chance they got (eg WW1). But as we know, the rebels are often backed by some country. USA, Saudis, Iranians… why would Russia not back Russians? The ideais that they are being decimated. Russia even did this with non-ethnic Russians, eg helped Ossetia win independence from Georgia who were shelling them badly. They also in some weird way helped Transnistria in Moldova. And of course on the other side, USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence. On all levels this is happening.
- Const-me 5y ago
  > They freaked out. Yes, indeed. > the separatists would still fight Maybe (IMO unlikely but it's debatable), but I doubt they would do anything like that [0] [1]. For [0], they're not freaked out enough. For [1], civilians don't have the equipment. It's OK for a country to have internal conflicts. Every country has some, yet in most cases they don't turn into a war. > the rebels are often backed by some country. The only problem, rebels were invented by Russian propaganda. > The ideais that they are being decimated. That too, and no Ukrainian would ever believe that. Before the war, they had generally positive attitude towards Russians, with millions of mixed families. > from Georgia who were shelling them badly > USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence Do you have a source for any of these claims? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murdered-council-member-vladimir-rybak-buried https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_a...
  - EGreg 5y ago
    So when you read this, you think “Russia” wherever it says “pro-Russian separatists”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_... 1.5 million Internally Displaced Persons is no joke. Your article however about Girkin is compelling. He seems like a Manuel Norriega-like figure who became an international terrorist and self-proclaimed leader. Without him, you think, the separatists would not have gained so much steam?
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The Russians purposefully moved a bunch of instigators from one vassal state into what they would have liked to be their next. That you continue to carry water for them given all the evidence on the ground is baffling to me.

EGreg 5y ago

I think that without any Russian army backing them, the separatists would still fight, as soon as their guy Yanukovich was ousted. They freaked out. Other separatists fight. The PKK fights for a separate Kurdish state for example. Catalonians tried to fight for years. Heck, Ukrainian nationalists themselves fought every chance they got (eg WW1). But as we know, the rebels are often backed by some country. USA, Saudis, Iranians… why would Russia not back Russians? The ideais that they are being decimated. Russia even did this with non-ethnic Russians, eg helped Ossetia win independence from Georgia who were shelling them badly. They also in some weird way helped Transnistria in Moldova. And of course on the other side, USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence. On all levels this is happening.

Const-me 5y ago
> They freaked out. Yes, indeed. > the separatists would still fight Maybe (IMO unlikely but it's debatable), but I doubt they would do anything like that [0] [1]. For [0], they're not freaked out enough. For [1], civilians don't have the equipment. It's OK for a country to have internal conflicts. Every country has some, yet in most cases they don't turn into a war. > the rebels are often backed by some country. The only problem, rebels were invented by Russian propaganda. > The ideais that they are being decimated. That too, and no Ukrainian would ever believe that. Before the war, they had generally positive attitude towards Russians, with millions of mixed families. > from Georgia who were shelling them badly > USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence Do you have a source for any of these claims? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murdered-council-member-vladimir-rybak-buried https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_a...
- EGreg 5y ago
  So when you read this, you think “Russia” wherever it says “pro-Russian separatists”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_... 1.5 million Internally Displaced Persons is no joke. Your article however about Girkin is compelling. He seems like a Manuel Norriega-like figure who became an international terrorist and self-proclaimed leader. Without him, you think, the separatists would not have gained so much steam?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    The Russians purposefully moved a bunch of instigators from one vassal state into what they would have liked to be their next. That you continue to carry water for them given all the evidence on the ground is baffling to me.