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This is wrong for so many reasons. The root problem, democratic Ukraine presents existential treat for Russian autocrats. Donbass is not an independent entity

This is wrong for so many reasons. The root problem, democratic Ukraine presents existential treat for Russian autocrats. Donbass is not an independent entity, it's part of Ukraine occupied by Russians in 2014, under full Russian control. Ukrainians are absolutely willing to fight. For them, the war is not "over nationality stuff", they're defending their country and their freedom. They have been doing that for almost 8 years since Russians invaded, take a look: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-131706369.jpg https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-sold... That's Ukrainian soldiers and policemen killed by Russians since 2014 on Ukrainian land.

EGreg 5y ago
Democratic would suggest that people are peacefully voting, not fighting to secede. What you said can equally apply on the level of people in the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, or on the level of Russia. It is not unique to Ukraine. I wonder if society truly had freedom of speech and democracy whether the PROBLEM I described above would happen. It is not unique to Ukraine. Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. Or Tamil Tigers, PKK, PLO, to name a few of the more radical ones. If you step back you will see that every country is trying to control the narrative, including through mass media and education. A year ago Zelenskyy closed down at least three media outlets [1] that were in agreement with the Russian narrative for instance, presumably as “enemies of the people”. The statesmen don’t listen to the other side and they don’t want you to listen either. The less you hear from others they demonize, the more willing you are to take up arms and fight against other people — who, like you — were either riled up or conscripted to fight for what flag will fly over what territory. As it is, it sounds like various people are absolutely willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not. Shouldn’t a democracy care about what the vast majority wants? [1] https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505 https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-oppositio...
- Const-me 5y ago
  > Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Sometimes, people in such situations can indeed start a war for independence. This happened here in Yugoslavia not long ago, in 1991-2001. However, I don't see how's that relevant to Ukraine. The only reason that war has started, and is ongoing for 8 years, is Russian military. For instance, this guy played a major role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin > willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not I'm not sure why Russians soldiers are fighting in the foreign country, but what you said is true for Ukrainians. Unfortunately for them, they can't stop the war. The moment they stop shooting back, Russians will advance further into their land.
  - EGreg 5y ago
    I think that without any Russian army backing them, the separatists would still fight, as soon as their guy Yanukovich was ousted. They freaked out. Other separatists fight. The PKK fights for a separate Kurdish state for example. Catalonians tried to fight for years. Heck, Ukrainian nationalists themselves fought every chance they got (eg WW1). But as we know, the rebels are often backed by some country. USA, Saudis, Iranians… why would Russia not back Russians? The ideais that they are being decimated. Russia even did this with non-ethnic Russians, eg helped Ossetia win independence from Georgia who were shelling them badly. They also in some weird way helped Transnistria in Moldova. And of course on the other side, USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence. On all levels this is happening.
    - Const-me 5y ago
      > They freaked out. Yes, indeed. > the separatists would still fight Maybe (IMO unlikely but it's debatable), but I doubt they would do anything like that [0] [1]. For [0], they're not freaked out enough. For [1], civilians don't have the equipment. It's OK for a country to have internal conflicts. Every country has some, yet in most cases they don't turn into a war. > the rebels are often backed by some country. The only problem, rebels were invented by Russian propaganda. > The ideais that they are being decimated. That too, and no Ukrainian would ever believe that. Before the war, they had generally positive attitude towards Russians, with millions of mixed families. > from Georgia who were shelling them badly > USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence Do you have a source for any of these claims? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murdered-council-member-vladimir-rybak-buried https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_a...

EGreg 5y ago

Democratic would suggest that people are peacefully voting, not fighting to secede. What you said can equally apply on the level of people in the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, or on the level of Russia. It is not unique to Ukraine. I wonder if society truly had freedom of speech and democracy whether the PROBLEM I described above would happen. It is not unique to Ukraine. Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. Or Tamil Tigers, PKK, PLO, to name a few of the more radical ones. If you step back you will see that every country is trying to control the narrative, including through mass media and education. A year ago Zelenskyy closed down at least three media outlets [1] that were in agreement with the Russian narrative for instance, presumably as “enemies of the people”. The statesmen don’t listen to the other side and they don’t want you to listen either. The less you hear from others they demonize, the more willing you are to take up arms and fight against other people — who, like you — were either riled up or conscripted to fight for what flag will fly over what territory. As it is, it sounds like various people are absolutely willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not. Shouldn’t a democracy care about what the vast majority wants? [1] https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505 https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-oppositio...

Const-me 5y ago
> Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Sometimes, people in such situations can indeed start a war for independence. This happened here in Yugoslavia not long ago, in 1991-2001. However, I don't see how's that relevant to Ukraine. The only reason that war has started, and is ongoing for 8 years, is Russian military. For instance, this guy played a major role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin > willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not I'm not sure why Russians soldiers are fighting in the foreign country, but what you said is true for Ukrainians. Unfortunately for them, they can't stop the war. The moment they stop shooting back, Russians will advance further into their land.
- EGreg 5y ago
  I think that without any Russian army backing them, the separatists would still fight, as soon as their guy Yanukovich was ousted. They freaked out. Other separatists fight. The PKK fights for a separate Kurdish state for example. Catalonians tried to fight for years. Heck, Ukrainian nationalists themselves fought every chance they got (eg WW1). But as we know, the rebels are often backed by some country. USA, Saudis, Iranians… why would Russia not back Russians? The ideais that they are being decimated. Russia even did this with non-ethnic Russians, eg helped Ossetia win independence from Georgia who were shelling them badly. They also in some weird way helped Transnistria in Moldova. And of course on the other side, USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence. On all levels this is happening.
  - Const-me 5y ago
    > They freaked out. Yes, indeed. > the separatists would still fight Maybe (IMO unlikely but it's debatable), but I doubt they would do anything like that [0] [1]. For [0], they're not freaked out enough. For [1], civilians don't have the equipment. It's OK for a country to have internal conflicts. Every country has some, yet in most cases they don't turn into a war. > the rebels are often backed by some country. The only problem, rebels were invented by Russian propaganda. > The ideais that they are being decimated. That too, and no Ukrainian would ever believe that. Before the war, they had generally positive attitude towards Russians, with millions of mixed families. > from Georgia who were shelling them badly > USA is helping nationalists break away from Russian influence Do you have a source for any of these claims? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murdered-council-member-vladimir-rybak-buried https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_a...