5 ms·

A hack to solve the Donbass-Ukraine-Russia-NATO problem and avoid WW3

4 points by EGreg 5y ago

ROOT PROBLEM: Politicians of A don’t care about legitimate concerns of B, just give lip service. They may even attend a summit (eg in Minsk) or give promises (eg about expansion) but not really act on it later. A = Ukraine B = Donbass A = Russia B = Ukraine A = USA and NATO B = Russia PERPETUATION: The vast majority of regular people don’t want to take arms to fight over nationality stuff. But the politicians their country’s mass media and schools indoctrinate their population into supporting their nation’s concerns at one level while ignoring the concerns of others at other levels. “We are good, they are bad”. And selling weapons has become a big business. SOLUTION: We have to start untangling this at the highest level first. Have Zelenskyy exhort NATO to invite Russia in. If they do, that solves everything and prevents WW3!! Zelenskyy after all is known to be humorous and original: https://twitter.com/gregmozart/status/1496036885784928263?s=21

DLA 5y ago
Russia in NATO? Come on! The _point_ of NATO is to defend against the wry type aggression Russia is visiting on Ukraine this very moment. Im not sure you grasp the situation.
- EGreg 5y ago
  I believe I grasp it on more levels than you. I have listened to the Russians, Ukrainians, people of Donbass, and what they actually say, publish etc. It is the oldest justification in the book: “You see? All I did was expand my defensive capabilities and those guys are being belligerent just as I said they would! We are good and they are bad!” This tweetstorm may be instructive — it is quoting warnings issued by the very people who hatched the NATO strategy: https://twitter.com/clintehrlich/status/1482563442641108993?s=21 https://twitter.com/clintehrlich/status/1482563442641108993?... Kennan literally predicts what you say here.
Const-me 5y ago
This is wrong for so many reasons. The root problem, democratic Ukraine presents existential treat for Russian autocrats. Donbass is not an independent entity, it's part of Ukraine occupied by Russians in 2014, under full Russian control. Ukrainians are absolutely willing to fight. For them, the war is not "over nationality stuff", they're defending their country and their freedom. They have been doing that for almost 8 years since Russians invaded, take a look: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-131706369.jpg https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-sold... That's Ukrainian soldiers and policemen killed by Russians since 2014 on Ukrainian land.
- EGreg 5y ago
  Democratic would suggest that people are peacefully voting, not fighting to secede. What you said can equally apply on the level of people in the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, or on the level of Russia. It is not unique to Ukraine. I wonder if society truly had freedom of speech and democracy whether the PROBLEM I described above would happen. It is not unique to Ukraine. Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. Or Tamil Tigers, PKK, PLO, to name a few of the more radical ones. If you step back you will see that every country is trying to control the narrative, including through mass media and education. A year ago Zelenskyy closed down at least three media outlets [1] that were in agreement with the Russian narrative for instance, presumably as “enemies of the people”. The statesmen don’t listen to the other side and they don’t want you to listen either. The less you hear from others they demonize, the more willing you are to take up arms and fight against other people — who, like you — were either riled up or conscripted to fight for what flag will fly over what territory. As it is, it sounds like various people are absolutely willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not. Shouldn’t a democracy care about what the vast majority wants? [1] https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505 https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-oppositio...
  - Const-me 5y ago
    > Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Sometimes, people in such situations can indeed start a war for independence. This happened here in Yugoslavia not long ago, in 1991-2001. However, I don't see how's that relevant to Ukraine. The only reason that war has started, and is ongoing for 8 years, is Russian military. For instance, this guy played a major role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin > willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not I'm not sure why Russians soldiers are fighting in the foreign country, but what you said is true for Ukrainians. Unfortunately for them, they can't stop the war. The moment they stop shooting back, Russians will advance further into their land.

4 points by EGreg 5y ago

DLA 5y ago

Russia in NATO? Come on! The _point_ of NATO is to defend against the wry type aggression Russia is visiting on Ukraine this very moment. Im not sure you grasp the situation.

EGreg 5y ago
I believe I grasp it on more levels than you. I have listened to the Russians, Ukrainians, people of Donbass, and what they actually say, publish etc. It is the oldest justification in the book: “You see? All I did was expand my defensive capabilities and those guys are being belligerent just as I said they would! We are good and they are bad!” This tweetstorm may be instructive — it is quoting warnings issued by the very people who hatched the NATO strategy: https://twitter.com/clintehrlich/status/1482563442641108993?s=21 https://twitter.com/clintehrlich/status/1482563442641108993?... Kennan literally predicts what you say here.

Const-me 5y ago

This is wrong for so many reasons. The root problem, democratic Ukraine presents existential treat for Russian autocrats. Donbass is not an independent entity, it's part of Ukraine occupied by Russians in 2014, under full Russian control. Ukrainians are absolutely willing to fight. For them, the war is not "over nationality stuff", they're defending their country and their freedom. They have been doing that for almost 8 years since Russians invaded, take a look: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-memorial-wall-to-fallen-soldiers-war-ukraine-kiev-131706369.jpg https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/memorial-wall-to-fallen-sold... That's Ukrainian soldiers and policemen killed by Russians since 2014 on Ukrainian land.

EGreg 5y ago
Democratic would suggest that people are peacefully voting, not fighting to secede. What you said can equally apply on the level of people in the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, or on the level of Russia. It is not unique to Ukraine. I wonder if society truly had freedom of speech and democracy whether the PROBLEM I described above would happen. It is not unique to Ukraine. Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. Or Tamil Tigers, PKK, PLO, to name a few of the more radical ones. If you step back you will see that every country is trying to control the narrative, including through mass media and education. A year ago Zelenskyy closed down at least three media outlets [1] that were in agreement with the Russian narrative for instance, presumably as “enemies of the people”. The statesmen don’t listen to the other side and they don’t want you to listen either. The less you hear from others they demonize, the more willing you are to take up arms and fight against other people — who, like you — were either riled up or conscripted to fight for what flag will fly over what territory. As it is, it sounds like various people are absolutely willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not. Shouldn’t a democracy care about what the vast majority wants? [1] https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505 https://amp.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-oppositio...
- Const-me 5y ago
  > Look at China and Tibet, for instance, or Hong Kong. Or Catalonia and Spain, Basques and France. You are giving examples of people who want independence. Sometimes, people in such situations can indeed start a war for independence. This happened here in Yugoslavia not long ago, in 1991-2001. However, I don't see how's that relevant to Ukraine. The only reason that war has started, and is ongoing for 8 years, is Russian military. For instance, this guy played a major role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin > willing to fight on all sides, for all kinds of nationality stuff, but the vast majority would rather not I'm not sure why Russians soldiers are fighting in the foreign country, but what you said is true for Ukrainians. Unfortunately for them, they can't stop the war. The moment they stop shooting back, Russians will advance further into their land.