4 ms·

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a pretty big difference between a "moral compromise" and a modal to entice a potential customer to buy? I'm not clear on

by loteck 5y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a pretty big difference between a "moral compromise" and a modal to entice a potential customer to buy? I'm not clear on how enticement even comes close to being a "dark pattern" as I understand the term.

ehnto 5y ago
When someone tries to navigate away they wanted to stop them. A real world analogue would be if I tried to leave a store and someone blocked my way to try and make me buy something. That's insane behavior, I don't owe your business or site anything, least of all my time. Those are the kindest words I can find for that behavior.
- evan_ 5y ago
  But assuming it’s just a div that appears when you mouse off at the top, it doesn’t actually do anything to stop them. It’s not outrageous for a shopkeeper to say “don’t go!” or something like that as you’re leaving. It’s annoying and tacky but it’s not analogous to being held hostage.
  - nickthegreek 5y ago
    In the olden days, a website could pop up a dialog box that would lock browser interaction til it was dealt with. It was abused. A lot. This was way prior to 2012 tho.
  - addaon 5y ago
    2012. A modal dialog was probably a javascript alert(), which at the time was model for the whole browser and would prevent navigation until dismissed.
    - gruez 5y ago
      I just tested with an older version of firefox (10.0, released January 31, 2012), and it had non-modal alert() dialogs.
  - menzoic 5y ago
    You've never seen this? When someone clicks to close a browser tab you can stop the tab from closing by adding a handler to the onbeforeunload() event.
    - gruez 5y ago
      And that can be bypassed by closing the tab again.
      - lazide 5y ago
        Yup, pretty terrible.
- gruez 5y ago
  >A real world analogue would be if I tried to leave a store and someone blocked my way to try and make me buy something. That'd depend on the implementation behavior. If it's using window.onbeforeunload, yeah I guess it's kind of like someone blocking you when you try to leave, although you can easily walk around them (on most browsers if you try to close the tab and the modal shows up, and you try to close the tab again it will override the modal). However, there's also another type where it tracks the location of your cursor, and shows a popup when it leaves the content area (indicating that your mouse is going to close the tab or go back). In that case it's not really blocking anything, and much more analogous to a salesperson saying "before you go" as you're walking out the door.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Either of these behaviors is equivalent to someone standing in front of the door and trying to harass me when I leave. Which is a solid ‘no thanks, not coming here again’ from me.
  - marssaxman 5y ago
    > much more analogous to a salesperson saying "before you go" as you're walking out the door. I would try to avoid going back to that store.
    - zestyping 5y ago
      I would never go back to that store and I would tell my friends not to shop there.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  While I agree, do remember that some patterns can and do extend to the physical. Many stores do indeed make it hard to leave without buying, for example by having no direct route to the exit: you have to squeeze through the tills awkwardly. It's probably in the name of loss prevention, but it's also a disincentive to leave without a purchase. Actually, nearly everything about a supermarket is carefully designed for extracting money from you, from product placement, to layout, need to have a loyalty card to access discounts, even perhaps having discounts in the first place (as opposed to selling at a lower regular price), multipacks driving food and packaging waste, etc etc etc.
- itronitron 5y ago
  Best Buy used to do something similar in their retail stores to paying customers. A bouncer at the exit would usually stop people and check receipts against the merchandise they were leaving with. It's a great way for a company to show that it has no trust for its customers and that it hopes they don't come back.
Barrin92 5y ago
>isn't there a pretty big difference between a "moral compromise" and a modal to entice a potential customer to buy? well the difference is that you've used more fancy words in the second description. Reminds me of the joke "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."
coldtea 5y ago
Imagine when trying to exit any retail business you had an employee stop you at the door with an offer.
- moribunda 5y ago
  Exit popups don't stop you. You simply get an extra offer. You can proceed to click (x) - it's not hidden etc.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >Exit popups don't stop you. You mean don't ultimately prevent you. But they absolutely do temporarily stop you.
washadjeffmad 5y ago
Respect and volition, mainly. If a customer is attempting to leave and you bar their exit, you've demonstrated a willful contempt of their wishes. It causes the customer stress and serves no purpose other than to show them that you can make them do as you please. It's a micro aggression, a type of violence. Imagine a woman trying to leave a man's apartment as he holds the door closed. He reminds her she was the one who came inside and asks again, is she sure there's nothing she wants from him? He keeps his hand there until she says she's sure so she understands, he [i]let[/i] her leave. I'm against either scenario for effectively the same reasons.

by loteck 5y ago

ehnto 5y ago

When someone tries to navigate away they wanted to stop them. A real world analogue would be if I tried to leave a store and someone blocked my way to try and make me buy something. That's insane behavior, I don't owe your business or site anything, least of all my time. Those are the kindest words I can find for that behavior.

evan_ 5y ago
But assuming it’s just a div that appears when you mouse off at the top, it doesn’t actually do anything to stop them. It’s not outrageous for a shopkeeper to say “don’t go!” or something like that as you’re leaving. It’s annoying and tacky but it’s not analogous to being held hostage.
- nickthegreek 5y ago
  In the olden days, a website could pop up a dialog box that would lock browser interaction til it was dealt with. It was abused. A lot. This was way prior to 2012 tho.
- addaon 5y ago
  2012. A modal dialog was probably a javascript alert(), which at the time was model for the whole browser and would prevent navigation until dismissed.
  - gruez 5y ago
    I just tested with an older version of firefox (10.0, released January 31, 2012), and it had non-modal alert() dialogs.
- menzoic 5y ago
  You've never seen this? When someone clicks to close a browser tab you can stop the tab from closing by adding a handler to the onbeforeunload() event.
  - gruez 5y ago
    And that can be bypassed by closing the tab again.
    - lazide 5y ago
      Yup, pretty terrible.
gruez 5y ago
>A real world analogue would be if I tried to leave a store and someone blocked my way to try and make me buy something. That'd depend on the implementation behavior. If it's using window.onbeforeunload, yeah I guess it's kind of like someone blocking you when you try to leave, although you can easily walk around them (on most browsers if you try to close the tab and the modal shows up, and you try to close the tab again it will override the modal). However, there's also another type where it tracks the location of your cursor, and shows a popup when it leaves the content area (indicating that your mouse is going to close the tab or go back). In that case it's not really blocking anything, and much more analogous to a salesperson saying "before you go" as you're walking out the door.
- lazide 5y ago
  Either of these behaviors is equivalent to someone standing in front of the door and trying to harass me when I leave. Which is a solid ‘no thanks, not coming here again’ from me.
- marssaxman 5y ago
  > much more analogous to a salesperson saying "before you go" as you're walking out the door. I would try to avoid going back to that store.
  - zestyping 5y ago
    I would never go back to that store and I would tell my friends not to shop there.
adhesive_wombat 5y ago
While I agree, do remember that some patterns can and do extend to the physical. Many stores do indeed make it hard to leave without buying, for example by having no direct route to the exit: you have to squeeze through the tills awkwardly. It's probably in the name of loss prevention, but it's also a disincentive to leave without a purchase. Actually, nearly everything about a supermarket is carefully designed for extracting money from you, from product placement, to layout, need to have a loyalty card to access discounts, even perhaps having discounts in the first place (as opposed to selling at a lower regular price), multipacks driving food and packaging waste, etc etc etc.
itronitron 5y ago
Best Buy used to do something similar in their retail stores to paying customers. A bouncer at the exit would usually stop people and check receipts against the merchandise they were leaving with. It's a great way for a company to show that it has no trust for its customers and that it hopes they don't come back.

Barrin92 5y ago

>isn't there a pretty big difference between a "moral compromise" and a modal to entice a potential customer to buy? well the difference is that you've used more fancy words in the second description. Reminds me of the joke "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."

coldtea 5y ago

Imagine when trying to exit any retail business you had an employee stop you at the door with an offer.

moribunda 5y ago
Exit popups don't stop you. You simply get an extra offer. You can proceed to click (x) - it's not hidden etc.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >Exit popups don't stop you. You mean don't ultimately prevent you. But they absolutely do temporarily stop you.

washadjeffmad 5y ago

Respect and volition, mainly. If a customer is attempting to leave and you bar their exit, you've demonstrated a willful contempt of their wishes. It causes the customer stress and serves no purpose other than to show them that you can make them do as you please. It's a micro aggression, a type of violence. Imagine a woman trying to leave a man's apartment as he holds the door closed. He reminds her she was the one who came inside and asks again, is she sure there's nothing she wants from him? He keeps his hand there until she says she's sure so she understands, he [i]let[/i] her leave. I'm against either scenario for effectively the same reasons.