5 ms·

I thought cashlessness without a trusted third party was a solved problem. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

pepesza 5y ago
Bitcoin the network is fully transparent, which makes BTC not really fungible - it can and is traced, which creates better/worse BTC. This is why coinbase (small c) BTC is sold at premium. Bitcoin should and will die, but in its place a thousand flowers will bloom. FYI, you can have BTC asset without Bitcoin network in trust-less manner TODAY. See recent paper by Leona Hioki on the way to do it using Witness Encryption cryptographic scheme.
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  Lightning solves both scalability and privacy of the base layer of bitcoin.
xiphias2 5y ago
Satoshi called it digital cash actually for a reason, not cashlessness. It has similar properties to physical cash, as the ownership can't be taken away trivially. The problem is that people are still waking up slowly. For me the Cyprus bail-in in 2013 was the wake-up call that I need full ownership of my assets.
- fuckcensorship 5y ago
  The key issue with using Bitcoin as a digital form of cash is that Bitcoin lacks a key property of cash: fungibility. Combine this with the transparent nature of Bitcoin's blockchain and you have a currency which is an authoritarian's dream and not a currency that could/should replace cash.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    That's why we have Monero
  - xiphias2 5y ago
    Bitcoin is not totally lacking fungibility, as there are ways to make the coins more fungible, but it needs more developer support. Wasabi wallet has coinjoin support, although it's not easy to use, not automated, doesn't work on mobile phone and expensive for most people. Also of course exchanges try to AML-KYC them out, as govermnets are trying to fight it. Implementing Schnorr signatures was a great way to get closer to fungibility improvements, as it paves the path for signature batching, which can make CoinJoin cheaper than a single transaction, and will change the incentives towards making Bitcoin fungible by default for every user.
  - lawn 5y ago
    How lucky we are that cryptocurrencies have evolved since Bitcoin. Monero is fungible.
  - voldacar 5y ago
    Are dollars fungible by your definition? They have physical serial numbers printed on them. I agree with your broader point, which is why I prefer monero.
  - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
    If it was an authoritarian's dream, powerful countries around the world would be embracing it. But it's not, because they can't control it, only surveil it to the same extent that any other person can. They have a slight advantage because they can compel exchanges to collect personally identifying information about their customers and divulge it upon request, but other than that they have no privileged position like they do with the Fiat banking system.
pretendgeneer 5y ago
The surveillance and lockouts bitcoin allows makes even the most Authoritarian government blush.
- eric_cc 5y ago
  > lockouts Source?
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  What lockouts? Nobody can prevent you from transferring your bitcoin.

pepesza 5y ago

Bitcoin the network is fully transparent, which makes BTC not really fungible - it can and is traced, which creates better/worse BTC. This is why coinbase (small c) BTC is sold at premium. Bitcoin should and will die, but in its place a thousand flowers will bloom. FYI, you can have BTC asset without Bitcoin network in trust-less manner TODAY. See recent paper by Leona Hioki on the way to do it using Witness Encryption cryptographic scheme.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago
Lightning solves both scalability and privacy of the base layer of bitcoin.

xiphias2 5y ago

Satoshi called it digital cash actually for a reason, not cashlessness. It has similar properties to physical cash, as the ownership can't be taken away trivially. The problem is that people are still waking up slowly. For me the Cyprus bail-in in 2013 was the wake-up call that I need full ownership of my assets.

fuckcensorship 5y ago
The key issue with using Bitcoin as a digital form of cash is that Bitcoin lacks a key property of cash: fungibility. Combine this with the transparent nature of Bitcoin's blockchain and you have a currency which is an authoritarian's dream and not a currency that could/should replace cash.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  That's why we have Monero
- xiphias2 5y ago
  Bitcoin is not totally lacking fungibility, as there are ways to make the coins more fungible, but it needs more developer support. Wasabi wallet has coinjoin support, although it's not easy to use, not automated, doesn't work on mobile phone and expensive for most people. Also of course exchanges try to AML-KYC them out, as govermnets are trying to fight it. Implementing Schnorr signatures was a great way to get closer to fungibility improvements, as it paves the path for signature batching, which can make CoinJoin cheaper than a single transaction, and will change the incentives towards making Bitcoin fungible by default for every user.
- lawn 5y ago
  How lucky we are that cryptocurrencies have evolved since Bitcoin. Monero is fungible.
- voldacar 5y ago
  Are dollars fungible by your definition? They have physical serial numbers printed on them. I agree with your broader point, which is why I prefer monero.
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  If it was an authoritarian's dream, powerful countries around the world would be embracing it. But it's not, because they can't control it, only surveil it to the same extent that any other person can. They have a slight advantage because they can compel exchanges to collect personally identifying information about their customers and divulge it upon request, but other than that they have no privileged position like they do with the Fiat banking system.

pretendgeneer 5y ago

The surveillance and lockouts bitcoin allows makes even the most Authoritarian government blush.

eric_cc 5y ago
> lockouts Source?
tenuousemphasis 5y ago
What lockouts? Nobody can prevent you from transferring your bitcoin.