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">One persistent U.S. demand is that Ukraine’s territorial integrity be restored. Indeed, the U.S. is party to the Budapest Memorandum in which Russia guarantee

by astine 5y ago

">One persistent U.S. demand is that Ukraine’s territorial integrity be restored. Indeed, the U.S. is party to the Budapest Memorandum in which Russia guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial integrity in return for Ukraine’s transfer of Soviet nuclear weapons to Russia for destruction in accord with U.S.-Soviet arms control agreements. What the U.S. demand ignores is that, under traditional international law, agreements remain valid rebus sic stantibus (things remaining the same). >When the Budapest memorandum was signed in 1994 there was no plan to expand NATO to the east and Gorbachev had been assured in 1990 that the alliance would not expand. When in fact it did expand right up to Russia’s borders, Russia was confronted with a radically different strategic situation than existed when the Budapest agreement was signed." And this gives Russia permission to invade a sovereign nation? Ukraine's independence is not just a matter of the Budapest Memorandum, it's a matter of the wishes of the Ukrainian people who have wanted independence from Russia for centuries, something many Russians don't want to acknowledge. So far, NATO has not invaded Russia or violated its territorial sovereignty but Russia has violated the borders of multiple boarder states, so it's a bit rich for Putin to complain about NATO when he's clearly just trying to reincorporate border states that were conquered by the Tzars.

remarkEon 5y ago
>And this gives Russia permission to invade a sovereign nation? Nowhere did I suggest this, and Matlock does not even imply it in his essay. I was pretty clear that the problem I have with this discussion at this point. To put it bluntly: we will get nowhere with diplomacy if our line continues to be "your concerns are fake and made up, so do what we tell you". That's the attitude I see in here, in MSM, and from politicians (mostly in the US). Russia needs to be punished for what they're doing, but I want to see an end to these conflicts. The greatest geopolitical blunder since the end of WWII is the utter failure of the West to come to terms with and reintegrate Russia into a joint-security sphere after the fall of communism and Soviet Union. It's bigger than the Iraq War even, since Russia actually does have nukes. >...it's a matter of the wishes of the Ukrainian people who have wanted independence from Russia for centuries Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons. Some a genuine I'm sure, and I haven't been to Ukraine, and only have a few friends from there. So it's hard for me to gauge exactly how genuine any of this is given how toxic coverage of anything even tangentially related to Russia is in the West.
- astine 5y ago
  "Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons. Some a genuine I'm sure, and I haven't been to Ukraine, and only have a few friends from there. So it's hard for me to gauge exactly how genuine any of this is given how toxic coverage of anything even tangentially related to Russia is in the West. " Well I have been there and I can tell you that Ukrainian patriotism is much broader than just the far right. Some of the people in the US are hardcore neo-Nazis but nobody assumes that they drive American foreign policy.
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    Good, I'm glad to hear it. I genuinely hope all involved seek peace. I've seen war, and I'm praying for them and their families. >Some of the people in the US are hardcore neo-Nazis but nobody assumes that they drive American foreign policy. Probably because they don't. The only reason I brought it up is that I take issue with the framing of Ukrainian militias in the western press, where the ... troubling nature (to put it lightly) of some of these organizations is ignored. This is largely irrelevant to the greater point about the history here though (sorry I brought it up), and I wish more in the West broadly but in the United States in particular would read history that goes back farther than 1938.
- neonbones 5y ago
  >Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons And still, there is Trump in the US who won the race and mass shooting from nazis. Why does the US get any weapons? It's strange rhetoric because there are many nazis in the US with regular hate crimes in media, but it will be hard to find any hate crimes in Ukraine. Politically, nazi apologists in the US government got much more support than in Ukraine. From the last news after parliament election >The main mouthpiece of the nationalists, Yarosh scored 0.7% of the vote in the presidential elections. In Russia, Sobchak (one of the opposition leaders) scored about the same. The number of seats in the parliament is 1 (one) for the nationalists from the "Samopomich" party, while the pro-Russian "OB" has 6. There is no right sector (nationalist supporters) at all in the new gathering. Even with Putin's message that there are "no country like Ukraine, no Ukrainian language and culture, no Ukrainians as people at all," all that things that black people also can see in the US, there are LESS nationalist supporters than Russian supporters (a country, who started proxy war for 8 years already) in Ukraine. Yeah, it seems like nazi to me.

by astine 5y ago

remarkEon 5y ago

>And this gives Russia permission to invade a sovereign nation? Nowhere did I suggest this, and Matlock does not even imply it in his essay. I was pretty clear that the problem I have with this discussion at this point. To put it bluntly: we will get nowhere with diplomacy if our line continues to be "your concerns are fake and made up, so do what we tell you". That's the attitude I see in here, in MSM, and from politicians (mostly in the US). Russia needs to be punished for what they're doing, but I want to see an end to these conflicts. The greatest geopolitical blunder since the end of WWII is the utter failure of the West to come to terms with and reintegrate Russia into a joint-security sphere after the fall of communism and Soviet Union. It's bigger than the Iraq War even, since Russia actually does have nukes. >...it's a matter of the wishes of the Ukrainian people who have wanted independence from Russia for centuries Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons. Some a genuine I'm sure, and I haven't been to Ukraine, and only have a few friends from there. So it's hard for me to gauge exactly how genuine any of this is given how toxic coverage of anything even tangentially related to Russia is in the West.

astine 5y ago
"Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons. Some a genuine I'm sure, and I haven't been to Ukraine, and only have a few friends from there. So it's hard for me to gauge exactly how genuine any of this is given how toxic coverage of anything even tangentially related to Russia is in the West. " Well I have been there and I can tell you that Ukrainian patriotism is much broader than just the far right. Some of the people in the US are hardcore neo-Nazis but nobody assumes that they drive American foreign policy.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  Good, I'm glad to hear it. I genuinely hope all involved seek peace. I've seen war, and I'm praying for them and their families. >Some of the people in the US are hardcore neo-Nazis but nobody assumes that they drive American foreign policy. Probably because they don't. The only reason I brought it up is that I take issue with the framing of Ukrainian militias in the western press, where the ... troubling nature (to put it lightly) of some of these organizations is ignored. This is largely irrelevant to the greater point about the history here though (sorry I brought it up), and I wish more in the West broadly but in the United States in particular would read history that goes back farther than 1938.
neonbones 5y ago
>Some of these people in Ukraine are hardcore neo-Nazis, and we are giving them weapons And still, there is Trump in the US who won the race and mass shooting from nazis. Why does the US get any weapons? It's strange rhetoric because there are many nazis in the US with regular hate crimes in media, but it will be hard to find any hate crimes in Ukraine. Politically, nazi apologists in the US government got much more support than in Ukraine. From the last news after parliament election >The main mouthpiece of the nationalists, Yarosh scored 0.7% of the vote in the presidential elections. In Russia, Sobchak (one of the opposition leaders) scored about the same. The number of seats in the parliament is 1 (one) for the nationalists from the "Samopomich" party, while the pro-Russian "OB" has 6. There is no right sector (nationalist supporters) at all in the new gathering. Even with Putin's message that there are "no country like Ukraine, no Ukrainian language and culture, no Ukrainians as people at all," all that things that black people also can see in the US, there are LESS nationalist supporters than Russian supporters (a country, who started proxy war for 8 years already) in Ukraine. Yeah, it seems like nazi to me.