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I consider the worst part to be that many Canadians (particularly the educated) seem to be fine this is happening, or even openly advocating for it. This more t

by ayngg 5y ago

I consider the worst part to be that many Canadians (particularly the educated) seem to be fine this is happening, or even openly advocating for it. This more than anything else makes me very concerned about how Canada navigates the next little while.

mmastrac 5y ago
Canada is not America. We trade some freedoms for a healthier, more robust system. I find the American reactions to our system confusing, honestly. Our democracy is not in danger, nor are the majority of Canadians concerned about this. The greatest concerns seem to be from Americans and this is particularly bad on Reddit, where the Canadian subreddit has been captured by right-leaning Americans mainly.
- AzzieElbab 5y ago
  How is “our democracy is not in danger” apply to people who had their funds frozen for supporting convoys? Does “our” means “mine” in this case?
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  >Canada is not America. I think this bears repeating. Especially when one of the protest organizers tried to cite their "first amendment rights" in court: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-hearing-february-19-1.6358307 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-heari...
  - rescripting 5y ago
    Well they _do_ have the right to recognize Manitoba as a province, and many of them seem very vocal about it.
  - frabbit 5y ago
    The USA is not America either. And it is unfortunate that many Canadians do not understand that they are living in a state in which the parliament can be suspended by the unelected representative of the Queen (prorogation -- the same issue that led to Australia deciding they wanted to change their constitution) and that the not withstanding clause makes a mockery of the Charter. Hopefully this wakes a few people up and gives some new impetus to the reform movements.
    - seanw444 5y ago
      Wow. That's just unacceptable for a "liberal democracy."
      - monkeybutton 5y ago
        Yes. This has happened before when the conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper, asked the governor general to prorogue parliament and block a coalition government from forming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Canadian_par...
- kaczordon 5y ago
  It’s not America but it was founded with western liberal ideas to be a functioning self-governing democracy and have English common law ideals similar to America. Chief among those is due process which this emergencies act completely sidesteps.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    It's a system set up with "here's where the American system gets screwy" hindsight available, though. The two systems are cousins, not identical twins.
  - 8note 5y ago
    Canada has "peace, order and good government" where the US has "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" The governments actions meet at least 2/3 and most Canadians would say 3/3 of the main Canadian values.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      I think your numbers are completely baseless. And "good government" is elsewhere.
- SECProto 5y ago
  Absolutely agree. The American viewpoint seems to be "restrictions on freedom of speech! Not allowing protests! Canada is becoming a dictatorship!" which I think is an absurdly extreme reaction, particularly in a minority parliament. I think Canadians have more faith in our institutions, particularly the courts, to remain apolitical.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >I think Canadians have more faith in our institutions, particularly the courts, to remain apolitical. But in this case they're freezing bank accounts without even going through the courts.
    - SECProto 5y ago
      > But in this case they're freezing bank accounts without even going through the courts. And the emergencies act is being challenged in court, which will determine if this is lawful. Banks are private entities. They freeze accounts engaged in illegal activities regularly. The US does too - here's one random citation. [1] [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11899955/when-banks-turned-their-backs-on-them-some-adult-entertainment-workers-turned-to-cryptocurrency https://www.kqed.org/news/11899955/when-banks-turned-their-b...
      - smaryjerry 5y ago
        The key here is that these people are not engaged in illegal activities or even accused of engaging in illegal activities before their accounts are frozen and before they have been given any chance to defend themselves. Rapists and murderers don’t even get treated this badly. They are treating them like terrorists.
        mmastrac 5y ago
        But they are engaged in illegal activities, which you can find with a cursory Google search. And blocking borders and pipelines can arguably be classified as economic terrorism. They are fully welcome to protest peacefully, on foot, in front of parliament like everyone else.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Calling the Canadian system robust is just detached from reality. Between the fact that quebec has not even signed the constitution yet, the opportunist and sometimes never ending elections, the total mess that is our constitution and charter... and your comment is in a thread where the government invoked an act that strips away almost all our charter rights and does away with due process. Do you not see the irony? That has never happened even in the USA. I guess it's just natural for canadians to have this weird smug inferiority complex towards the US but you have to remember that our government admitted to committing a genocide (still ongoing) barely 2 years ago. Also on average even a majority government rarely gets more than 34% of the total votes. But I'm legimately curious as to what parts of our system you see as being so healthy? Btw saying that the majority of canadians are not concerned at all about setting the precedent of suspending charter rights over a protest is just a complete self own if it was true and I don't think it is. Well at least I hope it isn't
  - henrikschroder 5y ago
    > I guess it's just natural for canadians to have this weird smug inferiority complex towards the US There was an article in the Montreal Gazette this January that was very earnest, but if you read it with a critical outside perspective, it's absolutely ludicrous: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/josh-freed-florida-feels-like-another-planet-compared-with-quebec https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/josh-freed-flori... So this guy fled Quebec's corona restrictions for a vacation in Florida, and describes this experience while constantly complaining how Floridians are ignoring corona, and putting in a bunch of digs at the US healthcare system. But at the same time, why did he go to Florida if everything is so terrible there? And if Canada's healthcare is so great, why was his pre-departure corona test that he needed to take before being let back in to Canada, free and easy to get in Florida? And why was the post-arrival test he needed to do in Quebec, expensive and hard to get? The amount of Stockholm syndrome and "Canadian apologetics" is completely off-the-charts. I simply cannot understand how you can write an article like this in the first place, it's absolutely deranged. (The height of irony, of course, is that at the time of the article's publishing, the daily death rate in Quebec was twice as high as the one in Florida.)
- ayngg 5y ago
  On the contrary, I feel like the pandemic has revealed the fragility and asymmetric distribution of costs in our society, and the governments unwillingness to even address it. I do not consider democracy in danger, but there are some pretty serious precedents being set. I suspect Canadians aren't concerned because for the most part Canadians have lived a very comfortable existence for a very long time due to the nature of our geopolitical privileges. I think the hyperbole tossed around regarding the convoy and blockade illustrate this.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Our democracy is not in danger, nor are the majority of Canadians concerned about this. "Fully 61 percent of Americans said they approve of renewing the Patriot Act's provisions to allow for continued collection of phone data, according to a CNN/ORC poll released Monday, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points." https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/01/411234429/americans-say-they-want-the-patriot-act-renewed-but-do-they-really https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/01/41123... >The greatest concerns seem to be from Americans and this is particularly bad on Reddit, where the Canadian subreddit has been captured by right-leaning Americans mainly. Source for this?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - justinhj 5y ago
    Once you know you are on the side of good everyone who disagrees with you must be assigned to an out-group. That way you don't have to listen to them.
- gorwell 5y ago
  From the Canadian Civil Liberties Association: Let's be clear: there is no legal justification for using the emergencies act. The broad powers the government has granted to police curtail Charter rights across the country. This risk of abuse is high. The emergency declaration should be immediately revoked. https://twitter.com/cancivlib/status/1495932825752809472 https://twitter.com/cancivlib/status/1495932825752809472
  - mmastrac 5y ago
    Let's be clear that the CCLA is not an organization that many Canadians have even heard of (unlike the ACLU), and that their stance really doesn't carry any weight more than any other organization weighing in on this. The act was passed specifically to curtail charter abuses from the previous bill and in the end, still answers to the charter.
    - justinhj 5y ago
      I'm Canadian and I'm both familiar with CCLA and glad they exist, especially at the moment. Not to be hyperbolic, but many people around the world don't know Amnesty International exists until they find themselves locked up without due process and find that they have a weighty advocate.
- novok 5y ago
  The 'freedoms' (more accurately called rights) that Canada sacrifices to make the country work better and simpler, such as specific local & state rights, are not the lost freedoms that most Canadians think make the country better. By removing some forms of vetocracy, the state can coordinate better and avoids some forms of small scale corruption, although not enough as most of the housing crisis shows. Much of the dysfunction of the USA partly comes from it's size and it's economic, climatic & historical diversity compared to Canada. Canada is significantly smaller economically, historically and population wise. It is also a country that has had consistently cold winters, which creates cultural values that forces you to save for the winter, which makes everyone work better together, which is something you see similar with Scandinavian countries [0]. The USA has many climates that make fairly different cultures in subtle ways. Canada works better because it's smaller and accidents of history, not because they don't have free speech. Canada is more american than they feel comfortable with, and this creates a unease that makes them feel like they need to differentiate themselves on minor difference, much like two twins. [0] If your wondering why russia doesn't work like scandinavia, one reason why is hundreds of years of brutal mongolian rule, while scandinanvia avoided that trauma.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    Interesting theories. First, i find that the communal work togetherness is also present in Mediterranean European countries which don't have that bad winters. Second, i don't get the premise behind the Mongols explanation. Doesn't a common external enemy make people work together even more? Furthermore many countries were rules by Mongols ( including China and most of Central Asia), yet they exhibit varying levels of "togetherness"/communal spirit.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    I completely disagree with everything you said. And please do not pretend to speak on behalf of "most Canadians". "Most Canadians" likely could not care less about things that does not affect them directly. And the opinions of the ones who do are most likely split in very different proportions contrary to your claim.
    - 5y ago

by ayngg 5y ago

mmastrac 5y ago

Canada is not America. We trade some freedoms for a healthier, more robust system. I find the American reactions to our system confusing, honestly. Our democracy is not in danger, nor are the majority of Canadians concerned about this. The greatest concerns seem to be from Americans and this is particularly bad on Reddit, where the Canadian subreddit has been captured by right-leaning Americans mainly.

AzzieElbab 5y ago
How is “our democracy is not in danger” apply to people who had their funds frozen for supporting convoys? Does “our” means “mine” in this case?
monkeybutton 5y ago
>Canada is not America. I think this bears repeating. Especially when one of the protest organizers tried to cite their "first amendment rights" in court: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-hearing-february-19-1.6358307 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-heari...
- rescripting 5y ago
  Well they _do_ have the right to recognize Manitoba as a province, and many of them seem very vocal about it.
- frabbit 5y ago
  The USA is not America either. And it is unfortunate that many Canadians do not understand that they are living in a state in which the parliament can be suspended by the unelected representative of the Queen (prorogation -- the same issue that led to Australia deciding they wanted to change their constitution) and that the not withstanding clause makes a mockery of the Charter. Hopefully this wakes a few people up and gives some new impetus to the reform movements.
  - seanw444 5y ago
    Wow. That's just unacceptable for a "liberal democracy."
    - monkeybutton 5y ago
      Yes. This has happened before when the conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper, asked the governor general to prorogue parliament and block a coalition government from forming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Canadian_par...
kaczordon 5y ago
It’s not America but it was founded with western liberal ideas to be a functioning self-governing democracy and have English common law ideals similar to America. Chief among those is due process which this emergencies act completely sidesteps.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  It's a system set up with "here's where the American system gets screwy" hindsight available, though. The two systems are cousins, not identical twins.
- 8note 5y ago
  Canada has "peace, order and good government" where the US has "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" The governments actions meet at least 2/3 and most Canadians would say 3/3 of the main Canadian values.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    I think your numbers are completely baseless. And "good government" is elsewhere.
SECProto 5y ago
Absolutely agree. The American viewpoint seems to be "restrictions on freedom of speech! Not allowing protests! Canada is becoming a dictatorship!" which I think is an absurdly extreme reaction, particularly in a minority parliament. I think Canadians have more faith in our institutions, particularly the courts, to remain apolitical.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I think Canadians have more faith in our institutions, particularly the courts, to remain apolitical. But in this case they're freezing bank accounts without even going through the courts.
  - SECProto 5y ago
    > But in this case they're freezing bank accounts without even going through the courts. And the emergencies act is being challenged in court, which will determine if this is lawful. Banks are private entities. They freeze accounts engaged in illegal activities regularly. The US does too - here's one random citation. [1] [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11899955/when-banks-turned-their-backs-on-them-some-adult-entertainment-workers-turned-to-cryptocurrency https://www.kqed.org/news/11899955/when-banks-turned-their-b...
    - smaryjerry 5y ago
      The key here is that these people are not engaged in illegal activities or even accused of engaging in illegal activities before their accounts are frozen and before they have been given any chance to defend themselves. Rapists and murderers don’t even get treated this badly. They are treating them like terrorists.
      - mmastrac 5y ago
        But they are engaged in illegal activities, which you can find with a cursory Google search. And blocking borders and pipelines can arguably be classified as economic terrorism. They are fully welcome to protest peacefully, on foot, in front of parliament like everyone else.
mardifoufs 5y ago
Calling the Canadian system robust is just detached from reality. Between the fact that quebec has not even signed the constitution yet, the opportunist and sometimes never ending elections, the total mess that is our constitution and charter... and your comment is in a thread where the government invoked an act that strips away almost all our charter rights and does away with due process. Do you not see the irony? That has never happened even in the USA. I guess it's just natural for canadians to have this weird smug inferiority complex towards the US but you have to remember that our government admitted to committing a genocide (still ongoing) barely 2 years ago. Also on average even a majority government rarely gets more than 34% of the total votes. But I'm legimately curious as to what parts of our system you see as being so healthy? Btw saying that the majority of canadians are not concerned at all about setting the precedent of suspending charter rights over a protest is just a complete self own if it was true and I don't think it is. Well at least I hope it isn't
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  > I guess it's just natural for canadians to have this weird smug inferiority complex towards the US There was an article in the Montreal Gazette this January that was very earnest, but if you read it with a critical outside perspective, it's absolutely ludicrous: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/josh-freed-florida-feels-like-another-planet-compared-with-quebec https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/josh-freed-flori... So this guy fled Quebec's corona restrictions for a vacation in Florida, and describes this experience while constantly complaining how Floridians are ignoring corona, and putting in a bunch of digs at the US healthcare system. But at the same time, why did he go to Florida if everything is so terrible there? And if Canada's healthcare is so great, why was his pre-departure corona test that he needed to take before being let back in to Canada, free and easy to get in Florida? And why was the post-arrival test he needed to do in Quebec, expensive and hard to get? The amount of Stockholm syndrome and "Canadian apologetics" is completely off-the-charts. I simply cannot understand how you can write an article like this in the first place, it's absolutely deranged. (The height of irony, of course, is that at the time of the article's publishing, the daily death rate in Quebec was twice as high as the one in Florida.)
ayngg 5y ago
On the contrary, I feel like the pandemic has revealed the fragility and asymmetric distribution of costs in our society, and the governments unwillingness to even address it. I do not consider democracy in danger, but there are some pretty serious precedents being set. I suspect Canadians aren't concerned because for the most part Canadians have lived a very comfortable existence for a very long time due to the nature of our geopolitical privileges. I think the hyperbole tossed around regarding the convoy and blockade illustrate this.
gruez 5y ago
>Our democracy is not in danger, nor are the majority of Canadians concerned about this. "Fully 61 percent of Americans said they approve of renewing the Patriot Act's provisions to allow for continued collection of phone data, according to a CNN/ORC poll released Monday, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points." https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/01/411234429/americans-say-they-want-the-patriot-act-renewed-but-do-they-really https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/01/41123... >The greatest concerns seem to be from Americans and this is particularly bad on Reddit, where the Canadian subreddit has been captured by right-leaning Americans mainly. Source for this?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- justinhj 5y ago
  Once you know you are on the side of good everyone who disagrees with you must be assigned to an out-group. That way you don't have to listen to them.
gorwell 5y ago
From the Canadian Civil Liberties Association: Let's be clear: there is no legal justification for using the emergencies act. The broad powers the government has granted to police curtail Charter rights across the country. This risk of abuse is high. The emergency declaration should be immediately revoked. https://twitter.com/cancivlib/status/1495932825752809472 https://twitter.com/cancivlib/status/1495932825752809472
- mmastrac 5y ago
  Let's be clear that the CCLA is not an organization that many Canadians have even heard of (unlike the ACLU), and that their stance really doesn't carry any weight more than any other organization weighing in on this. The act was passed specifically to curtail charter abuses from the previous bill and in the end, still answers to the charter.
  - justinhj 5y ago
    I'm Canadian and I'm both familiar with CCLA and glad they exist, especially at the moment. Not to be hyperbolic, but many people around the world don't know Amnesty International exists until they find themselves locked up without due process and find that they have a weighty advocate.
novok 5y ago
The 'freedoms' (more accurately called rights) that Canada sacrifices to make the country work better and simpler, such as specific local & state rights, are not the lost freedoms that most Canadians think make the country better. By removing some forms of vetocracy, the state can coordinate better and avoids some forms of small scale corruption, although not enough as most of the housing crisis shows. Much of the dysfunction of the USA partly comes from it's size and it's economic, climatic & historical diversity compared to Canada. Canada is significantly smaller economically, historically and population wise. It is also a country that has had consistently cold winters, which creates cultural values that forces you to save for the winter, which makes everyone work better together, which is something you see similar with Scandinavian countries [0]. The USA has many climates that make fairly different cultures in subtle ways. Canada works better because it's smaller and accidents of history, not because they don't have free speech. Canada is more american than they feel comfortable with, and this creates a unease that makes them feel like they need to differentiate themselves on minor difference, much like two twins. [0] If your wondering why russia doesn't work like scandinavia, one reason why is hundreds of years of brutal mongolian rule, while scandinanvia avoided that trauma.
- sofixa 5y ago
  Interesting theories. First, i find that the communal work togetherness is also present in Mediterranean European countries which don't have that bad winters. Second, i don't get the premise behind the Mongols explanation. Doesn't a common external enemy make people work together even more? Furthermore many countries were rules by Mongols ( including China and most of Central Asia), yet they exhibit varying levels of "togetherness"/communal spirit.
- FpUser 5y ago
  I completely disagree with everything you said. And please do not pretend to speak on behalf of "most Canadians". "Most Canadians" likely could not care less about things that does not affect them directly. And the opinions of the ones who do are most likely split in very different proportions contrary to your claim.
  - 5y ago