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Sure, but that in itself is also not an argument. The space of programming languages in general is moving forward and languages keep adding more (usually higher

Sure, but that in itself is also not an argument. The space of programming languages in general is moving forward and languages keep adding more (usually higher-level) features. C++ is mostly trying to keep up.

JAlexoid 5y ago
Adding features from literally every other language, just to create a mess - isn't really a selling point. Right now, to learn C++ in a generic way, you need to learn pretty much all of programming paradigms and all of their variations - which is not a thing I would consider a plus.
- passivate 5y ago
  >Right now, to learn C++ in a generic way, you need to learn pretty much all of programming paradigms and all of their variations - which is not a thing I would consider a plus. I disagree, I would recommend learning enough where the tool starts providing value to YOU for YOUR problem domain and then pause/resume as needed. The main purpose of any programming language is to be productive in it and use it to solve a problem. In my opinion, there is no reason to learn more than you need about C++ unless you were a compiler author, on the C++ standards committee, or something similar.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  "Generic," maybe, but in practice many people learn C++ as one of, as it were, two languages - one for application code developers and the other, for those who build libraries and provide APIs.
ModernMech 5y ago
Fred Brooks put it this way: "I will contend that conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design. It is better to have a system omit certain anomalous features and improvements, but to reflect one set of design ideas, than to have one that contains many good but independent and uncoordinated ideas." IMO C++ does not have conceptual integrity.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  A language that has stopped responding to the evolving needs of its user community is a dead language. C++ is not a dead language. Your complaint is that it is not dead.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    No, a language can stay current by evolving to fit its purpose. A good example of this is Matlab. Matlab is older than C++ and is still heavily used today, enough that it's one of the few remaining programming languages to support an actual business. Matlab is not the same language it was in the 70s. But the core language is still largely about manipulating arrays and it does it well. It has evolved by adding functionality through toolboxes and creating new, innovative developer tooling. But it hasn't jumped on every PL bandwagon that has driven by over the last 50 years.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Matlab usage has been in decline for many years.
      - ModernMech 5y ago
        Matlab is one of the top 20 programming languages in the world still after 60 years according to the TIOBE index [0]. It has maintained a large user-base and achieved profitability over this time, not by adopting every PL trend that has come and gone, but by adapting to new developments while staying focused on its essence as a language. It proves you can stay current without doing what C++ is doing. Matlab's usage is down a bit since a peak at 2017, but over the last 20 years it's up over 300%, and it's done so by being a for-profit language. Mathworks is a billion dollar company, which is quite an achievement in the PL space in 2022. Meanwhile C++ usage is up over the last couple years but the long term trend has been a steady decline over the last 20 years [1]. From 14% to a low of 4%, now back up to around 8%. [0] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/matlab/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/matlab/ [1] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/

JAlexoid 5y ago

Adding features from literally every other language, just to create a mess - isn't really a selling point. Right now, to learn C++ in a generic way, you need to learn pretty much all of programming paradigms and all of their variations - which is not a thing I would consider a plus.

passivate 5y ago
>Right now, to learn C++ in a generic way, you need to learn pretty much all of programming paradigms and all of their variations - which is not a thing I would consider a plus. I disagree, I would recommend learning enough where the tool starts providing value to YOU for YOUR problem domain and then pause/resume as needed. The main purpose of any programming language is to be productive in it and use it to solve a problem. In my opinion, there is no reason to learn more than you need about C++ unless you were a compiler author, on the C++ standards committee, or something similar.
Koshkin 5y ago
"Generic," maybe, but in practice many people learn C++ as one of, as it were, two languages - one for application code developers and the other, for those who build libraries and provide APIs.

ModernMech 5y ago

Fred Brooks put it this way: "I will contend that conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design. It is better to have a system omit certain anomalous features and improvements, but to reflect one set of design ideas, than to have one that contains many good but independent and uncoordinated ideas." IMO C++ does not have conceptual integrity.

ncmncm 5y ago
A language that has stopped responding to the evolving needs of its user community is a dead language. C++ is not a dead language. Your complaint is that it is not dead.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  No, a language can stay current by evolving to fit its purpose. A good example of this is Matlab. Matlab is older than C++ and is still heavily used today, enough that it's one of the few remaining programming languages to support an actual business. Matlab is not the same language it was in the 70s. But the core language is still largely about manipulating arrays and it does it well. It has evolved by adding functionality through toolboxes and creating new, innovative developer tooling. But it hasn't jumped on every PL bandwagon that has driven by over the last 50 years.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Matlab usage has been in decline for many years.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Matlab is one of the top 20 programming languages in the world still after 60 years according to the TIOBE index [0]. It has maintained a large user-base and achieved profitability over this time, not by adopting every PL trend that has come and gone, but by adapting to new developments while staying focused on its essence as a language. It proves you can stay current without doing what C++ is doing. Matlab's usage is down a bit since a peak at 2017, but over the last 20 years it's up over 300%, and it's done so by being a for-profit language. Mathworks is a billion dollar company, which is quite an achievement in the PL space in 2022. Meanwhile C++ usage is up over the last couple years but the long term trend has been a steady decline over the last 20 years [1]. From 14% to a low of 4%, now back up to around 8%. [0] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/matlab/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/matlab/ [1] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/