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This all madness started when Canadian government couldn't admit that with omicron vaccine mandates no longer make much sense. Even if they played some role pre

by NoPie 5y ago

This all madness started when Canadian government couldn't admit that with omicron vaccine mandates no longer make much sense. Even if they played some role previously, previous infection is functionally equivalent to vaccination. Most provinces had already implemented the plan to revoke them and many other countries are dropping them as well. This proves again and again that when the government implements a policy that is not based on science, the outcomes are very very bad.

BeefWellington 5y ago
> This all madness started when Canadian government couldn't admit that with omicron vaccine mandates no longer make much sense. At the time this convoy began, Ontario was experiencing a surge in its hospitals with around 4000 hospital beds occupied by people with COVID.[1][2] Note, that's from COVID, not with COVID. While it may turn out to be true that Omicron made mandates make no sense, keep in mind these rules were in response to the US' implementation, announced in October of last year.[3] Canada implemented these to sync up and provide clarity at the borders in January, when then American rules went into effect.[4] [1]: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations [2]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-update-ontario-1.6324211 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-update-ontar... [3]: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow-fully-vaccinated-travelers-canada-and-mexico-enter-us-land https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow... [4]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-vaccine-mandate-for-cross-border-truckers-is-now-in-effect-1.5741561 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-vaccine-mandate-for-c...
- NoPie 5y ago
  Two remarks about this: 1) About half of those people in hospitals were vaccinated. 2) Vaccine mandates do not considerably improve vaccination update, especially among elderly who benefit the most from vaccination. As for the US rules, both countries ignore science on this. Nothing good came out of it.
  - BeefWellington 5y ago
    Two additional remarks: > 1) About half of those people in hospitals were vaccinated. Considering Ontario is 90% 12+ fully vaccinated and 85% 5+ fully vaccinated[1], this means somewhere in the neighbourhood of say 15-18% of the population represents 50% of our hospitalizations, likely a lower percentage, since as you note this tends to hospitalize people in older cohorts. > 2) Vaccine mandates do not considerably improve vaccination update, especially among elderly who benefit the most from vaccination. Firstly, Ontario's elderly are massively vaccinated. 80+ is 99.99%, 70-79 is 99.99%, 60-69 (which I wouldn't consider elderly these days) is 97.37%.[4] This isn't due to anything very recent either, the rates have been 90%+ two doses for the 70+ crowd since August of last year. Secondly, if this were true, you would not expect to see upticks in vaccinations coinciding with mandate implementations. Yet in [1], in November of 2021 you see a clear uptake in vaccination doses administered. This coincides roughly when 5+ were authorized for vaccination[2], as well as when federally regulated industries began requiring it.[3] You can see from the raw data in [4] first doses between Nov 1 2021 and Jan 1 2022 was 468,443 for 5-11s, 28,257 for 12-17s, and 220,641 for 18+. Nearly a third of all first doses during the time period when 5-11 just became newly able to be vaccinated came from Ontario's adults. There was an 88.5% vaccination rate among 18+ at the start of that time period and there was a noticeable dip in vaccinations due to the holidays (you can see this in the booster #s too). You can question the motivations of those people but I think the numbers at least suggest that the mandates do have a part to play in driving people to get vaccinated. [1]: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data [2]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-eligibility-for-kids-5-11-by-province-and-territory-1.5679776 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-e... [3]: https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-requirements-for-federally-regulated-transportation-employees-and-travellers.html https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda... [4]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710000501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.7&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.1&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=171000...
    - NoPie 5y ago
      1) That's true and it shows that the difference between vaccinated and non-vaccinated is not dramatic. If everybody was vaccinated the decrease of hospitalization would be 50% which is not that significant compared to what we have gone through. 2) That's true as well and the UK had no vaccine mandates and had the same vaccination rates for elderly. And many countries with very strict vaccine mandates had terrible rates for elderly vaccinations, for example, in Latvia it is less than 75% while vaccination uptake among younger people is higher than that. The numbers do not show that the mandates considerably improved vaccination uptake among elderly neither in Canada, nor in other countries. I am questioning the motivation of people who try to push vaccine mandates by intentionally obscuring this point and by mixing true statements and projecting them onto elderly which is not confirmed by data.

by NoPie 5y ago

BeefWellington 5y ago

> This all madness started when Canadian government couldn't admit that with omicron vaccine mandates no longer make much sense. At the time this convoy began, Ontario was experiencing a surge in its hospitals with around 4000 hospital beds occupied by people with COVID.[1][2] Note, that's from COVID, not with COVID. While it may turn out to be true that Omicron made mandates make no sense, keep in mind these rules were in response to the US' implementation, announced in October of last year.[3] Canada implemented these to sync up and provide clarity at the borders in January, when then American rules went into effect.[4] [1]: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations [2]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-update-ontario-1.6324211 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-update-ontar... [3]: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow-fully-vaccinated-travelers-canada-and-mexico-enter-us-land https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow... [4]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-vaccine-mandate-for-cross-border-truckers-is-now-in-effect-1.5741561 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-vaccine-mandate-for-c...

NoPie 5y ago
Two remarks about this: 1) About half of those people in hospitals were vaccinated. 2) Vaccine mandates do not considerably improve vaccination update, especially among elderly who benefit the most from vaccination. As for the US rules, both countries ignore science on this. Nothing good came out of it.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  Two additional remarks: > 1) About half of those people in hospitals were vaccinated. Considering Ontario is 90% 12+ fully vaccinated and 85% 5+ fully vaccinated[1], this means somewhere in the neighbourhood of say 15-18% of the population represents 50% of our hospitalizations, likely a lower percentage, since as you note this tends to hospitalize people in older cohorts. > 2) Vaccine mandates do not considerably improve vaccination update, especially among elderly who benefit the most from vaccination. Firstly, Ontario's elderly are massively vaccinated. 80+ is 99.99%, 70-79 is 99.99%, 60-69 (which I wouldn't consider elderly these days) is 97.37%.[4] This isn't due to anything very recent either, the rates have been 90%+ two doses for the 70+ crowd since August of last year. Secondly, if this were true, you would not expect to see upticks in vaccinations coinciding with mandate implementations. Yet in [1], in November of 2021 you see a clear uptake in vaccination doses administered. This coincides roughly when 5+ were authorized for vaccination[2], as well as when federally regulated industries began requiring it.[3] You can see from the raw data in [4] first doses between Nov 1 2021 and Jan 1 2022 was 468,443 for 5-11s, 28,257 for 12-17s, and 220,641 for 18+. Nearly a third of all first doses during the time period when 5-11 just became newly able to be vaccinated came from Ontario's adults. There was an 88.5% vaccination rate among 18+ at the start of that time period and there was a noticeable dip in vaccinations due to the holidays (you can see this in the booster #s too). You can question the motivations of those people but I think the numbers at least suggest that the mandates do have a part to play in driving people to get vaccinated. [1]: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data [2]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-eligibility-for-kids-5-11-by-province-and-territory-1.5679776 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-e... [3]: https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-requirements-for-federally-regulated-transportation-employees-and-travellers.html https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda... [4]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710000501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.7&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.1&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=171000...
  - NoPie 5y ago
    1) That's true and it shows that the difference between vaccinated and non-vaccinated is not dramatic. If everybody was vaccinated the decrease of hospitalization would be 50% which is not that significant compared to what we have gone through. 2) That's true as well and the UK had no vaccine mandates and had the same vaccination rates for elderly. And many countries with very strict vaccine mandates had terrible rates for elderly vaccinations, for example, in Latvia it is less than 75% while vaccination uptake among younger people is higher than that. The numbers do not show that the mandates considerably improved vaccination uptake among elderly neither in Canada, nor in other countries. I am questioning the motivation of people who try to push vaccine mandates by intentionally obscuring this point and by mixing true statements and projecting them onto elderly which is not confirmed by data.