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This is a big factor in my insomnia. Not necessarily the fear that I'll die in my sleep (God willing, that's my preference in old age) but the realization that

This is a big factor in my insomnia. Not necessarily the fear that I'll die in my sleep (God willing, that's my preference in old age) but the realization that every night, I'm getting a little more and more acquainted with oblivion. Knowing that you and everyone else here is in the same boat helps a lot. Maybe it's trite, and silly, but the phrase "We're all in this together" brings me a little bit of comfort, a tiny slice of what I imagine the spiritual feel in greater quantities. As I get older I suspect more and more that humans are not adapted for atheism. Even us hard atheists tell each other stories of chemicals and stuff and cosmos and infinity. I have an ongoing conversation with my wife on whether we'll raise our future children Catholic or not. I think we might. The lure of those stories, the grandiosity of those narratives, the imagery and ritual... Those are just buttons that I don't know if an atheistic upbringing could press. I'm not saying it's not possible... Would a reverential trip to the Grand Canyon, a late night summer trip to Amboyd Crater, fulfill the need for awe that a child has as she's growing up? If I could will it I would have her completely skip the existential terror that I've contended with throughout my life, but of course, she would be her own person and her own mind, regardless of my plans.

amatecha 5y ago
Yes, seriously, most nights I am kept awake by that same existential dread. since I was too young to even know how to speak, actually. it's haunted me my entire life. I am of the fundamental belief that consciousness is nothing more than the functioning of our biological brain. I've never seen even the tiniest shred of evidence to suggest otherwise (in fact I have become more and more certain as I live more years on this earth and observe more humans in varying states of functioning/life/consciousness/etc.) ...
- nefitty 5y ago
  I'll dare to be presumptuous and share what has helped me the most, above Buddhist studies, psychoactives, meditation, yoga, journaling: just removing the idea of mortality from my brain. "Thanks I'm cured", right? I didn't believe it would help when I first learned the technique. I heard it from a researcher who studied death anxiety in Tibetan Buddhists. He found that their culture makes it an overwhelming priority to be constantly conscious of one's mortality. He found that this imperative was inculcated from the very earliest age, and he found an unusually high correspondence in those beliefs to symptoms of anxiety. It was startling to him, as to me, because he thought the whole idea of Buddhism was "go with the flow dude, everything is gonna be alright", but in the teachings emphasized in the culture, it morphs into some sort of spiritual specter always haunting the waking lives of these people. It resonated with me, because Western existential philosophy also makes death-awareness an ideal to strive for, with the concomitant devil's deal of constant anxiety. He concluded that extinguishing or minimizing the idea of one's mortality ends up freeing one from the existential terror it can cause. I remember being in my living room cleaning as I listened to the report, and I stopped in my tracks and put the vacuum down. "There's no fucking way that works." It WORKS. It started working almost right away. If the thought of dying came up I just would grab the thread and shake it and say to myself, "Ok, so what? You have to wash the dishes man." I don't think I've lost any of my cynicism or me-ness or critical faculties in the ensuing years. That constant death anxiety is almost completely gone now, except for the most inopportune lulls before sleep or in idleness. I keep coming back to it. "Oh my God. I'm going to die one day. No. No. No. Please no... Hey! Who fucking cares?! Think about your puppy, look how cute she is laying there so innocent. Think about renewing your car registration. Literally everything is more important than that insignificantly tiny moment in the future. You're ok right now." I hope that helps.
  - progman32 5y ago
    I'll have to try that. Today I get a lot of positive motivation from reminding myself I have limited time and to get on with achieving what I want to achieve, but life's to short to get stuck in cycles (I'm aware of the irony).
    - nefitty 5y ago
      It's super hard. I am so empathetic to what you're telling me. From the bits I've learned of you through this convo, you seem self-aware and intelligent. With those tools, I am confident you will always have equanimity near.
mathattack 5y ago
I came to appreciate the rituals around religion when my father passed. It’s worth asking “Is there value to the activities, even if you don’t believe the literal divinity of the stories?” The answer may vary by religion.
ASalazarMX 5y ago
As an ex-catholic, all I can say is: if your kids grow up with enough common sense and pragmatism, they might resent the early indoctrination. Their brains have not matured enough to develop common sense until their teens, and everything the adults say will be taken as absolute truth. The humane thing would be raising them atheist, explain about agnosticism and religion, and accept their choice. All the rituals can be done at any age. Just like religious parents can have atheists kids, atheist parents can have agnostic or religious children. Indoctrinating them from childhood is taking their freedom of choice and choosing for them.
- nefitty 5y ago
  Hey that's an amazing point. Thank you for mentioning it. I definitely value freedom of thought above ritual. That's an aspect of the decision I had set aside as a conceit in order to allow myself to entertain it at all. I too was raised (loosely) Catholic, and a lot of my initial pain around morality and life stemmed from my literal interpretation of those teachings. I hope that some sort of ongoing comparative discussion of religion and the purpose it can serve would help a child make their own best conclusions. The way I've been thinking of it at the moment is, the tension at the heart of this, is "Would 'depriving' someone of those rituals be more harmful than helpful?" I'm leaning toward it being negligible, but exposing them to ritual might bring an individual closer to a healthy path of spirituality on their own terms. I would definitely keep the aspect of autonomy front and center if I did introduce my child to religion. "They talked about Jesus today. Do you want to sit with me and find out what other people think of him?"

amatecha 5y ago

Yes, seriously, most nights I am kept awake by that same existential dread. since I was too young to even know how to speak, actually. it's haunted me my entire life. I am of the fundamental belief that consciousness is nothing more than the functioning of our biological brain. I've never seen even the tiniest shred of evidence to suggest otherwise (in fact I have become more and more certain as I live more years on this earth and observe more humans in varying states of functioning/life/consciousness/etc.) ...

nefitty 5y ago
I'll dare to be presumptuous and share what has helped me the most, above Buddhist studies, psychoactives, meditation, yoga, journaling: just removing the idea of mortality from my brain. "Thanks I'm cured", right? I didn't believe it would help when I first learned the technique. I heard it from a researcher who studied death anxiety in Tibetan Buddhists. He found that their culture makes it an overwhelming priority to be constantly conscious of one's mortality. He found that this imperative was inculcated from the very earliest age, and he found an unusually high correspondence in those beliefs to symptoms of anxiety. It was startling to him, as to me, because he thought the whole idea of Buddhism was "go with the flow dude, everything is gonna be alright", but in the teachings emphasized in the culture, it morphs into some sort of spiritual specter always haunting the waking lives of these people. It resonated with me, because Western existential philosophy also makes death-awareness an ideal to strive for, with the concomitant devil's deal of constant anxiety. He concluded that extinguishing or minimizing the idea of one's mortality ends up freeing one from the existential terror it can cause. I remember being in my living room cleaning as I listened to the report, and I stopped in my tracks and put the vacuum down. "There's no fucking way that works." It WORKS. It started working almost right away. If the thought of dying came up I just would grab the thread and shake it and say to myself, "Ok, so what? You have to wash the dishes man." I don't think I've lost any of my cynicism or me-ness or critical faculties in the ensuing years. That constant death anxiety is almost completely gone now, except for the most inopportune lulls before sleep or in idleness. I keep coming back to it. "Oh my God. I'm going to die one day. No. No. No. Please no... Hey! Who fucking cares?! Think about your puppy, look how cute she is laying there so innocent. Think about renewing your car registration. Literally everything is more important than that insignificantly tiny moment in the future. You're ok right now." I hope that helps.
- progman32 5y ago
  I'll have to try that. Today I get a lot of positive motivation from reminding myself I have limited time and to get on with achieving what I want to achieve, but life's to short to get stuck in cycles (I'm aware of the irony).
  - nefitty 5y ago
    It's super hard. I am so empathetic to what you're telling me. From the bits I've learned of you through this convo, you seem self-aware and intelligent. With those tools, I am confident you will always have equanimity near.

mathattack 5y ago

I came to appreciate the rituals around religion when my father passed. It’s worth asking “Is there value to the activities, even if you don’t believe the literal divinity of the stories?” The answer may vary by religion.

ASalazarMX 5y ago

As an ex-catholic, all I can say is: if your kids grow up with enough common sense and pragmatism, they might resent the early indoctrination. Their brains have not matured enough to develop common sense until their teens, and everything the adults say will be taken as absolute truth. The humane thing would be raising them atheist, explain about agnosticism and religion, and accept their choice. All the rituals can be done at any age. Just like religious parents can have atheists kids, atheist parents can have agnostic or religious children. Indoctrinating them from childhood is taking their freedom of choice and choosing for them.

nefitty 5y ago
Hey that's an amazing point. Thank you for mentioning it. I definitely value freedom of thought above ritual. That's an aspect of the decision I had set aside as a conceit in order to allow myself to entertain it at all. I too was raised (loosely) Catholic, and a lot of my initial pain around morality and life stemmed from my literal interpretation of those teachings. I hope that some sort of ongoing comparative discussion of religion and the purpose it can serve would help a child make their own best conclusions. The way I've been thinking of it at the moment is, the tension at the heart of this, is "Would 'depriving' someone of those rituals be more harmful than helpful?" I'm leaning toward it being negligible, but exposing them to ritual might bring an individual closer to a healthy path of spirituality on their own terms. I would definitely keep the aspect of autonomy front and center if I did introduce my child to religion. "They talked about Jesus today. Do you want to sit with me and find out what other people think of him?"