7 ms·

I'm a foreigner (yes, I know, sorry, sorry) who is a "US Person" and thus needs to (and, to be perfectly clear, is happy to, I'm sorry, I'm not-sorry, I'm sorry

by mdb31 5y ago

I'm a foreigner (yes, I know, sorry, sorry) who is a "US Person" and thus needs to (and, to be perfectly clear, is happy to, I'm sorry, I'm not-sorry, I'm sorry about being not-sorry?) pay US income tax. The IRS system is, by far, the worst I've ever had to deal with, and in this I'm comparing the US to countries like Rwanda, where, for some weird reason, I'm also required to pay taxes. Getting an ITIN (sort-of like a SSN, except you're not supposed to use it like that, otherwise they will send Ted Cruz after you...) is an absolute pain, mostly because you can only request it by phone, and literally nobody you talk to is able to spell your name right, DESPITE you repeating it endlessly in just about any spelling alphabet possible. So, you now have a dozen-or-so ITINs (again, like SSNs), all in different names, none of them yours. So, you file your taxes using the ITIN in the names that is closest to yours, and specify this on your tax forms. You send in your forms, and your check, which is cashed immediately. Repeat the next year, and so on. Now, after FOURTEEN years or so, you get sent a letter, informing you of a tax audit, and demanding you are physically present in Austin, Texas, two weeks from the postmark of the letter (never mind it reached you three months after that, and never mind you're located in Europe, which at that time was denied access to the US due to COVID-19). So, you get a lawyer, which costs close to US$ 8000. The lawyer contacts the IRS, which continues to insist on an in-person interview in the past. So, now you're out US$ 8000, and can never travel to the US again. But, yeah, lovely that they now allow additional login tools...

netfortius 5y ago
The fundamental issue here is that there is no meaningful voice of expats in the US, so any attempt to fight a system which wants your money, no matter where you are and make them, in the world, is prone to failure. The only real option is to renounce citizenship.
hanniabu 5y ago
> The IRS system is, by far, the worst I've ever had to deal with That's by design
- jcadam 5y ago
  The byzantine rules exist to create deductions and loopholes for different interest groups. Raising the standard deduction was actually a good move, as it simplified my tax filing for sure (I don't bother to itemize now) -- but I imagine the tax preparation industry (amongst others) was not pleased.
- mdb31 5y ago
  Yes, but WHY? I mean, I'm happy to pay my US taxes. Heck, I'm even happy to pay someone to pay my US taxes. But... neither of those options seem to work? I mean, just to back to Rwanda: it's an east-African country that is pretty much a dictatorship and had a real-life genocide less than 20 years ago. Yet, in Rwanda, I can just use my native cell phone number as my tax identifier, pay then what I need to pay, and be done with it. In the US, I am probably known under a dozen ITINs, and literally none of that is my fault: it's just that the IRS agents that created those ITINs were unaware of, like, any spelling alphabet ever. Even ITINs created using a fax (that's a TIFF-over-POTS, for you millennials) got completely misspelled. And now I'm supposed to spend tens of thousands of dollars to prove I've paid my taxes? OK, now I now the answer to my initial question...
  - plandis 5y ago
    There are some groups who oppose effectively all taxes and seek to make paying tax as hard as possible so that other people will agree with them that taxes are a pain. For example see Americans for Tax Reform working to torpedo California’s push to simplify state taxes a few years back. You also have corporate interests that profit from convoluted tax filing and lobby the government to keep it confusing so individuals continue to use their products.
    - mdb31 5y ago
      OK, I understand that some/many Americans dislike paying taxes. I do not exactly like it either. But, it seem like a particular US infliction to make paying taxes as hard as possible? Plus, they sanction you in extreme ways if you don't manage to jump through all the hoops? I pay taxes in many jurisdictions. Here is my experience: Netherlands (my home country): the tax authorities send me a proposal about payable taxes. This includes income from my business, my partner's job, our common investments, and some investments/business interests that are exclusive to me. I correct whatever is required (with the deadline being April 1st), and I'll get my final settlement sometime in June/July. Germany/France: I provide the tax authorities with my Dutch tax identification number, and they confirm they're fine with that in 3-4 months time. Rwanda, Nigeria and Zimbabwe: I also provide my native tax details (sometimes using my mobile number, sometimes using my NL 'SSN'), and they're fine with that, sometimes after billing me a small percentage over some income. US: I honestly have non idea where I stand. The IRS refuses to talk to me, yet summons me to physical meetings in the past that I cannot legally attend. I have hired several attorneys, none of which seem to be able to help. I probably owe several HUNDREDS of dollars in US tax. I've not visited the US since 2004, and have not done any business there since 2002. Yet... I'm apparently a much-wanted tax fugitive in the US. Does that count on a FAANG-inbound resume?
verelo 5y ago
Ah yes. Good to know that it’s not just the TSA i should dislike. I’m reminded of the line Logan Roy uses on Succession, something along the lines of “when i arrived in America there was nothing these people couldn’t do. Now they’ve pissed it all away”. Feels like it’ll be hard to see the US continue to be a major player unless it can get out of its own away at some point.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Can you name some countries you think are "major players" if the US isn't or won't be? >it’s not just the TSA i should dislike. You should try interacting with Australian or Canadian border forces if you want to see a true organization you should dislike. Hard to see Australia or Canada being even minor players if they can't deal with that dysfunction.
  - verelo 5y ago
    UK, China, Canada…uh there’s lots? I’m both Australian and Canadian, so maybe I’m bias but comparing them to the TSA is a stretch imo.
BoorishBears 5y ago
Linguists might study that intro to see how much passive aggression you can fit in one sentence... I think when being passive aggressive starts to harm readability, maybe you should just say what you're trying to say.
mmaunder 5y ago
I was a US person with an ITIN and have become a naturalized citizen. ITINs are very different to SSN. Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived. The challenge with an ITIN is it blurs into immigration, visa status, whether you are violating visa terms, whether your ITIN - which you can get on a tourist visa - is an indication that you're trying to build a life here when you're just supposed to be a tourist, and so on. That doesn't even get into property ownership, or being a director or shareholder in a US corporation with an ITIN and various visa types.
- ohgodplsno 5y ago
  > Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived. ??? France as a foreigner: You arrive in the country, your employer already declares all taxes for you. While you may not have a tax ID to log in to impots.gouv.fr yet, everything is already registered in your name (because you gave either your SSN, or your visa number, or anything else). You send a letter to ask for a username/password to use to log in on the website, which arrives about two weeks later. Your taxes are collected monthly, and at the end of the year you pay the leftover/get paid what you overpaid. You can tell the state at any point how much you think you will earn, and it gets reevaluated. Your yearly tax filing is prefilled, and there's no need for any software. As an employer, the URSSAF website is, while hell to navigate, very clear in how much you owe. Give out your SIRET/SIREN, your tax report, and your taxes are done.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    To be fair, there are some small hurdles - you get issued a temporary SSN quickly, but it might take some time and documents ( like an original of your birth certificate less than 6 months old in French, or translated in France by an authorised translator which is a retarded thing to ask for and for which I've had to explain many obvious things to many French officials - they simply do not have the right to ask for that, any EU country's translation is acceptable by law), but it's fine. You don't even need the regular SSN for taxes or healthcare, actually.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by mdb31 5y ago

netfortius 5y ago

The fundamental issue here is that there is no meaningful voice of expats in the US, so any attempt to fight a system which wants your money, no matter where you are and make them, in the world, is prone to failure. The only real option is to renounce citizenship.

hanniabu 5y ago

> The IRS system is, by far, the worst I've ever had to deal with That's by design

jcadam 5y ago
The byzantine rules exist to create deductions and loopholes for different interest groups. Raising the standard deduction was actually a good move, as it simplified my tax filing for sure (I don't bother to itemize now) -- but I imagine the tax preparation industry (amongst others) was not pleased.
mdb31 5y ago
Yes, but WHY? I mean, I'm happy to pay my US taxes. Heck, I'm even happy to pay someone to pay my US taxes. But... neither of those options seem to work? I mean, just to back to Rwanda: it's an east-African country that is pretty much a dictatorship and had a real-life genocide less than 20 years ago. Yet, in Rwanda, I can just use my native cell phone number as my tax identifier, pay then what I need to pay, and be done with it. In the US, I am probably known under a dozen ITINs, and literally none of that is my fault: it's just that the IRS agents that created those ITINs were unaware of, like, any spelling alphabet ever. Even ITINs created using a fax (that's a TIFF-over-POTS, for you millennials) got completely misspelled. And now I'm supposed to spend tens of thousands of dollars to prove I've paid my taxes? OK, now I now the answer to my initial question...
- plandis 5y ago
  There are some groups who oppose effectively all taxes and seek to make paying tax as hard as possible so that other people will agree with them that taxes are a pain. For example see Americans for Tax Reform working to torpedo California’s push to simplify state taxes a few years back. You also have corporate interests that profit from convoluted tax filing and lobby the government to keep it confusing so individuals continue to use their products.
  - mdb31 5y ago
    OK, I understand that some/many Americans dislike paying taxes. I do not exactly like it either. But, it seem like a particular US infliction to make paying taxes as hard as possible? Plus, they sanction you in extreme ways if you don't manage to jump through all the hoops? I pay taxes in many jurisdictions. Here is my experience: Netherlands (my home country): the tax authorities send me a proposal about payable taxes. This includes income from my business, my partner's job, our common investments, and some investments/business interests that are exclusive to me. I correct whatever is required (with the deadline being April 1st), and I'll get my final settlement sometime in June/July. Germany/France: I provide the tax authorities with my Dutch tax identification number, and they confirm they're fine with that in 3-4 months time. Rwanda, Nigeria and Zimbabwe: I also provide my native tax details (sometimes using my mobile number, sometimes using my NL 'SSN'), and they're fine with that, sometimes after billing me a small percentage over some income. US: I honestly have non idea where I stand. The IRS refuses to talk to me, yet summons me to physical meetings in the past that I cannot legally attend. I have hired several attorneys, none of which seem to be able to help. I probably owe several HUNDREDS of dollars in US tax. I've not visited the US since 2004, and have not done any business there since 2002. Yet... I'm apparently a much-wanted tax fugitive in the US. Does that count on a FAANG-inbound resume?

verelo 5y ago

Ah yes. Good to know that it’s not just the TSA i should dislike. I’m reminded of the line Logan Roy uses on Succession, something along the lines of “when i arrived in America there was nothing these people couldn’t do. Now they’ve pissed it all away”. Feels like it’ll be hard to see the US continue to be a major player unless it can get out of its own away at some point.

drstewart 5y ago
Can you name some countries you think are "major players" if the US isn't or won't be? >it’s not just the TSA i should dislike. You should try interacting with Australian or Canadian border forces if you want to see a true organization you should dislike. Hard to see Australia or Canada being even minor players if they can't deal with that dysfunction.
- verelo 5y ago
  UK, China, Canada…uh there’s lots? I’m both Australian and Canadian, so maybe I’m bias but comparing them to the TSA is a stretch imo.

BoorishBears 5y ago

Linguists might study that intro to see how much passive aggression you can fit in one sentence... I think when being passive aggressive starts to harm readability, maybe you should just say what you're trying to say.

mmaunder 5y ago

I was a US person with an ITIN and have become a naturalized citizen. ITINs are very different to SSN. Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived. The challenge with an ITIN is it blurs into immigration, visa status, whether you are violating visa terms, whether your ITIN - which you can get on a tourist visa - is an indication that you're trying to build a life here when you're just supposed to be a tourist, and so on. That doesn't even get into property ownership, or being a director or shareholder in a US corporation with an ITIN and various visa types.

ohgodplsno 5y ago
> Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived. ??? France as a foreigner: You arrive in the country, your employer already declares all taxes for you. While you may not have a tax ID to log in to impots.gouv.fr yet, everything is already registered in your name (because you gave either your SSN, or your visa number, or anything else). You send a letter to ask for a username/password to use to log in on the website, which arrives about two weeks later. Your taxes are collected monthly, and at the end of the year you pay the leftover/get paid what you overpaid. You can tell the state at any point how much you think you will earn, and it gets reevaluated. Your yearly tax filing is prefilled, and there's no need for any software. As an employer, the URSSAF website is, while hell to navigate, very clear in how much you owe. Give out your SIRET/SIREN, your tax report, and your taxes are done.
- sofixa 5y ago
  To be fair, there are some small hurdles - you get issued a temporary SSN quickly, but it might take some time and documents ( like an original of your birth certificate less than 6 months old in French, or translated in France by an authorised translator which is a retarded thing to ask for and for which I've had to explain many obvious things to many French officials - they simply do not have the right to ask for that, any EU country's translation is acceptable by law), but it's fine. You don't even need the regular SSN for taxes or healthcare, actually.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]