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I don't think NATO particularly wanted to include Ukraine, but they definitely don't want Russia to be able to dictate who is allowed to be included. Russia is

I don't think NATO particularly wanted to include Ukraine, but they definitely don't want Russia to be able to dictate who is allowed to be included. Russia is aware of this, which is why in order to set the grounds for an invasion of Ukraine, they repeatedly asked NATO "please swear that you'll never let Ukraine into NATO" with the added non-starter of "remove troops from existing NATO countries". And when NATO rightfully refuses, Russia can claim that NATO is planning to expand to their doorstep. Similarly for the EU, I don't think the EU strongly cares one way or another, but the EU cannot allow Russia to dictate who's allowed in or not. I don't think it's fair to say "the EU shouldn't let countries try to enter on the basis that Russia won't like it" and somehow it's stupid of them to allow a non-member to dictate who's allowed in.

busterarm 5y ago
The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. Sharing a border is simply not in their interests and they would rather destroy Ukraine than allow it to join the EU. The US would do the same thing. Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. How the fuck is that supposed to work, now that Russia is invading and obviously planning to incorporate Ukraine, which already borders on NATO and EU countries? That's Russia removing any buffer. Does that mean Russia now gets to dictate that Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania must leave NATO and the EU, and they and everyone else is just supposed to STFU and obey? Seems more reasonable that Russia just gets to stick this bit of its "mentality" where the sun don't shine, doesn't it?
- ghostwriter 5y ago
  > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. And having "50-100 year ago mentality" doesn't mean "unintelligent" either, it means "no bs wokeness" and "meticulously calculating", which is a crucially important skill in modern day global politics, perhaps even more important than 50 years ago.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    Yes, emphatically this. I didn't state so explicitly, but honestly the west are the ones being completely foolish here.
    - actionfromafar 5y ago
      Maybe foolish, but actually with a shred of ideology except Power.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
- karpierz 5y ago
  > The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. To be clear, their policy is "we will not ban nations from joining on the basis that a non-EU nation objects". I think they're aware that this may make some nations unhappy, but it's better than the alternative, which would make it very difficult to ever expand the EU (beyond how difficult it is already). > Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. Notice how that resolved though; the United States pledged (and followed through) with not invading or overthrowing Cuba. Cuba stayed as a USSR-aligned state on the border of the United States. Similarly in the Ukraine situation, Russia pledged to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine if they voluntarily handed over the nuclear weapons the USSR had planted there. Unlike the Cuban Missile Crisis, Russia has no intention of following through with its promises. > If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same. I agree that the US would panic, but Ukraine didn't strike any deals. They weren't in the process of joining NATO (and likely wouldn't be admitted due to "external territorial disputes") and they weren't in the process of joining the EU. In addition, the EU doesn't put military bases anywhere. The analogous situation would be if the United States invaded Canada because China refused to promise that they wouldn't make exclusive trade deals with Canada, and also refused to promise to remove soldiers from Hong Kong because they made the US feel unsafe.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    > I agree that the US would panic, but Ukraine didn't strike any deals. They weren't in the process of joining NATO (and likely wouldn't be admitted due to "external territorial disputes") and they weren't in the process of joining the EU. In addition, the EU doesn't put military bases anywhere. This is actually untrue. Ukraine has repeatedly stated their intention to become a NATO member state. It's even written into their Constitution. The Vilnius Summit joint declaration (which Ukraine's pro-Russia President at the time did not sign and ended up with his government being removed...) included language from the EU affirming Ukraine's intention to become a member state. Ukraine is currently preparing to put in its application to join the EU and has been formally working on this since Jan 2021. Ever since the Eastern Partnership (2009) and Ukraine-EU Association Agreement (2012), Russia has been publicly condemning this chosen course of action. Both NATO and the EU have been courting Ukraine since the early 2000s. You should check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 it's worth a watch.

busterarm 5y ago

The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. Sharing a border is simply not in their interests and they would rather destroy Ukraine than allow it to join the EU. The US would do the same thing. Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same.

CRConrad 5y ago
> Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. How the fuck is that supposed to work, now that Russia is invading and obviously planning to incorporate Ukraine, which already borders on NATO and EU countries? That's Russia removing any buffer. Does that mean Russia now gets to dictate that Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania must leave NATO and the EU, and they and everyone else is just supposed to STFU and obey? Seems more reasonable that Russia just gets to stick this bit of its "mentality" where the sun don't shine, doesn't it?
ghostwriter 5y ago
> Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. And having "50-100 year ago mentality" doesn't mean "unintelligent" either, it means "no bs wokeness" and "meticulously calculating", which is a crucially important skill in modern day global politics, perhaps even more important than 50 years ago.
- busterarm 5y ago
  Yes, emphatically this. I didn't state so explicitly, but honestly the west are the ones being completely foolish here.
  - actionfromafar 5y ago
    Maybe foolish, but actually with a shred of ideology except Power.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
karpierz 5y ago
> The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. To be clear, their policy is "we will not ban nations from joining on the basis that a non-EU nation objects". I think they're aware that this may make some nations unhappy, but it's better than the alternative, which would make it very difficult to ever expand the EU (beyond how difficult it is already). > Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. Notice how that resolved though; the United States pledged (and followed through) with not invading or overthrowing Cuba. Cuba stayed as a USSR-aligned state on the border of the United States. Similarly in the Ukraine situation, Russia pledged to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine if they voluntarily handed over the nuclear weapons the USSR had planted there. Unlike the Cuban Missile Crisis, Russia has no intention of following through with its promises. > If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same. I agree that the US would panic, but Ukraine didn't strike any deals. They weren't in the process of joining NATO (and likely wouldn't be admitted due to "external territorial disputes") and they weren't in the process of joining the EU. In addition, the EU doesn't put military bases anywhere. The analogous situation would be if the United States invaded Canada because China refused to promise that they wouldn't make exclusive trade deals with Canada, and also refused to promise to remove soldiers from Hong Kong because they made the US feel unsafe.
- busterarm 5y ago
  > I agree that the US would panic, but Ukraine didn't strike any deals. They weren't in the process of joining NATO (and likely wouldn't be admitted due to "external territorial disputes") and they weren't in the process of joining the EU. In addition, the EU doesn't put military bases anywhere. This is actually untrue. Ukraine has repeatedly stated their intention to become a NATO member state. It's even written into their Constitution. The Vilnius Summit joint declaration (which Ukraine's pro-Russia President at the time did not sign and ended up with his government being removed...) included language from the EU affirming Ukraine's intention to become a member state. Ukraine is currently preparing to put in its application to join the EU and has been formally working on this since Jan 2021. Ever since the Eastern Partnership (2009) and Ukraine-EU Association Agreement (2012), Russia has been publicly condemning this chosen course of action. Both NATO and the EU have been courting Ukraine since the early 2000s. You should check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 it's worth a watch.