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> I don't see NATO involving itself militarily. If a US soldier dies defending Ukraine, I think that enough people will ask "why are we shedding American blood

> I don't see NATO involving itself militarily. If a US soldier dies defending Ukraine, I think that enough people will ask "why are we shedding American blood for something that has nothing to do with us?" Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. All it has done is provoke Russia, who doesn't want foreign influence right on its borders and Ukraine isn't strategically relevant to NATO anyway. Everyone comes out of this looking incredibly stupid.

CRConrad 5y ago
> Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. Or, it's been stupid of the US and the EU to talk about Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO but not actually do it like, in 2015 - 17 sometime. > All it has done is provoke Russia, who doesn't want foreign influence right on its borders and Ukraine isn't strategically relevant to NATO anyway. Why the fuck is what Russia wants so holy? The rest of Europe wouldn't want a third-world country with nukes and a crazy tin-pot dictator on our eastern border, but are we getting that?
karpierz 5y ago
I don't think NATO particularly wanted to include Ukraine, but they definitely don't want Russia to be able to dictate who is allowed to be included. Russia is aware of this, which is why in order to set the grounds for an invasion of Ukraine, they repeatedly asked NATO "please swear that you'll never let Ukraine into NATO" with the added non-starter of "remove troops from existing NATO countries". And when NATO rightfully refuses, Russia can claim that NATO is planning to expand to their doorstep. Similarly for the EU, I don't think the EU strongly cares one way or another, but the EU cannot allow Russia to dictate who's allowed in or not. I don't think it's fair to say "the EU shouldn't let countries try to enter on the basis that Russia won't like it" and somehow it's stupid of them to allow a non-member to dictate who's allowed in.
- busterarm 5y ago
  The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. Sharing a border is simply not in their interests and they would rather destroy Ukraine than allow it to join the EU. The US would do the same thing. Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. How the fuck is that supposed to work, now that Russia is invading and obviously planning to incorporate Ukraine, which already borders on NATO and EU countries? That's Russia removing any buffer. Does that mean Russia now gets to dictate that Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania must leave NATO and the EU, and they and everyone else is just supposed to STFU and obey? Seems more reasonable that Russia just gets to stick this bit of its "mentality" where the sun don't shine, doesn't it?
  - ghostwriter 5y ago
    > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. And having "50-100 year ago mentality" doesn't mean "unintelligent" either, it means "no bs wokeness" and "meticulously calculating", which is a crucially important skill in modern day global politics, perhaps even more important than 50 years ago.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      Yes, emphatically this. I didn't state so explicitly, but honestly the west are the ones being completely foolish here.
      - actionfromafar 5y ago
agapon 5y ago
> Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. This is an incredibly stupid (and false) thing of you to say. With all due respect and apologies. As far as we, Ukrainians, see it, we are being encouraged to be "EU worthy" or "NATO worthy", but we are being constantly told that we are years (decades) from joining either.
- busterarm 5y ago
  These things don't happen overnight. The expressed plan has always been for your country to join in the 2030s. I'm saying it's been stupid/political suicide for the US and EU because they've both already made it clear that there is next to no strategic value of including Ukraine in these partnerships. It shows the weakness of the EU itself because it exposes the tiered importance of member states and how some just aren't. I think the best thing for all parties involved would have been to maintain Ukraine as a neutral buffer state and make sure that it has a thriving, rich economy. Because the alternative is the inevitable angering of Putin, who will not be made to look weak on a world stage. He would rather destroy your state's entire economy than have Russia look like it's not the dominant state in the region. If you don't believe that the EU has been pushing for you to join, just read the various drafts of the Vilinus Summit joint declaration that went unsigned.

CRConrad 5y ago

> Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. Or, it's been stupid of the US and the EU to talk about Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO but not actually do it like, in 2015 - 17 sometime. > All it has done is provoke Russia, who doesn't want foreign influence right on its borders and Ukraine isn't strategically relevant to NATO anyway. Why the fuck is what Russia wants so holy? The rest of Europe wouldn't want a third-world country with nukes and a crazy tin-pot dictator on our eastern border, but are we getting that?

karpierz 5y ago

I don't think NATO particularly wanted to include Ukraine, but they definitely don't want Russia to be able to dictate who is allowed to be included. Russia is aware of this, which is why in order to set the grounds for an invasion of Ukraine, they repeatedly asked NATO "please swear that you'll never let Ukraine into NATO" with the added non-starter of "remove troops from existing NATO countries". And when NATO rightfully refuses, Russia can claim that NATO is planning to expand to their doorstep. Similarly for the EU, I don't think the EU strongly cares one way or another, but the EU cannot allow Russia to dictate who's allowed in or not. I don't think it's fair to say "the EU shouldn't let countries try to enter on the basis that Russia won't like it" and somehow it's stupid of them to allow a non-member to dictate who's allowed in.

busterarm 5y ago
The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. Sharing a border is simply not in their interests and they would rather destroy Ukraine than allow it to join the EU. The US would do the same thing. Just think about how much we freaked out over the Cuban Missile Crisis. If China struck a deal with Canada to put a military base in Vancouver, we'd lose our shit, but we act shocked and insulted when Russia does the same.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. How the fuck is that supposed to work, now that Russia is invading and obviously planning to incorporate Ukraine, which already borders on NATO and EU countries? That's Russia removing any buffer. Does that mean Russia now gets to dictate that Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania must leave NATO and the EU, and they and everyone else is just supposed to STFU and obey? Seems more reasonable that Russia just gets to stick this bit of its "mentality" where the sun don't shine, doesn't it?
- ghostwriter 5y ago
  > Russia and China are still in the 50-100 years ago mentality and will ruthlessly enforce having buffer states between major powers. And having "50-100 year ago mentality" doesn't mean "unintelligent" either, it means "no bs wokeness" and "meticulously calculating", which is a crucially important skill in modern day global politics, perhaps even more important than 50 years ago.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    Yes, emphatically this. I didn't state so explicitly, but honestly the west are the ones being completely foolish here.
    - actionfromafar 5y ago

agapon 5y ago

> Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. This is an incredibly stupid (and false) thing of you to say. With all due respect and apologies. As far as we, Ukrainians, see it, we are being encouraged to be "EU worthy" or "NATO worthy", but we are being constantly told that we are years (decades) from joining either.

busterarm 5y ago
These things don't happen overnight. The expressed plan has always been for your country to join in the 2030s. I'm saying it's been stupid/political suicide for the US and EU because they've both already made it clear that there is next to no strategic value of including Ukraine in these partnerships. It shows the weakness of the EU itself because it exposes the tiered importance of member states and how some just aren't. I think the best thing for all parties involved would have been to maintain Ukraine as a neutral buffer state and make sure that it has a thriving, rich economy. Because the alternative is the inevitable angering of Putin, who will not be made to look weak on a world stage. He would rather destroy your state's entire economy than have Russia look like it's not the dominant state in the region. If you don't believe that the EU has been pushing for you to join, just read the various drafts of the Vilinus Summit joint declaration that went unsigned.