4 ms·

>Reasonably well Rendering to a canvas does not "work reasonably well", unless you want to go back to Flash days (but controlled by google this time)

pjmlp 5y ago
Therein lies the future, thanks WebAssembly. Blazor, Uno, Qt, Yew, Flutter,....
- samwillis 5y ago
  Although WASM is brilliant, I don't think its right to use it to recreate the whole UI drawn to canvas. You loose all accessibility integration with the OS either locking out users or making your life much harder reimplementing it. WASM is perfect for graphics and backend processing, see Figma it uses WASM for drawing the canvas but the rest of the ui is native web with all the accessibility tools that come with the browser/os.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    My life was made much harder when Flash and Silverlight like tooling was taken away. The craziness of faking UIs with paragraph tags massaged via CSS and JavaScript into a drop down menu. Now they are back, even Google Docs is moving into it.
- jms55 5y ago
  Yew doesn't use the canvas, it uses the DOM iirc.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I stand corrected on that one.
  - gernb 5y ago
    Wrong https://flutter.github.io/samples/web/form_app/#/form_widgets https://flutter.github.io/samples/web/form_app/#/form_widget...
    - kitkat_new 5y ago
      He talks about Yew [0], and you link to flutter? [0] https://yew.rs/ https://yew.rs/
      - gernb 5y ago
        Sorry.
saurik 5y ago
That's a philosophical issue, not a functionality one: something can work reasonably well even if you hate the world that results. (And I sadly just can't buy the philosophical issue anyway, frankly: if anything, I'd argue the biggest flaw with the web is it has a million nit-picky features when it should ONLY offer JavaScript+canvas, as third parties have a hope of reimplementing that correctly, unlike HTML+CSS. To the extent to which there were important behaviors people liked, such as accessibility, those should come from higher-level frameworks instead of being baked into the lowest level of the system.)
- ohgodplsno 5y ago
  accessibility is not a behavior that "people liked". It is enshrined in law in so many countries that they _have_ to be at the lowest level of the system.
  - saurik 5y ago
    I would argue it was enshrined in law because people liked it so much they demanded it, so maybe that's a semantics issue? That said, I do not believe the law insists that it be in the lowest level: the law merely insists that it exist for every site. It is convenient to put it at the lowest level if possible, but now it is just one more thing that literally every browser has to implement from scratch, and so the world that results is that the only company capable of making a good web browser is Google. There are sane reasons why accessibility is not considered part of a CPU (and thereby by most other reasonable runtime engines).
    - ohgodplsno 5y ago
      People with reading disabilities, vision issues, etc are rarely the ones being heavily represented in parliaments. Accessibility is truly a case of things being earned through spilled blood, and while there's probably much fewer people dying because they can't read the text on your website, it's a natural extension of the physical world. While the laws do not say that it should be up to the browser, it becomes natural that this moves to the lowest common denominator. Should it not be part of browsers, the moment any dominant browser comes in (say, Chrome) and implements it would lead to thousands of websites relying on this behavior from the browser, leading to "Works only on Chrome" situations, and other browsers most likely rushing behind to also support that feature.

pjmlp 5y ago

Therein lies the future, thanks WebAssembly. Blazor, Uno, Qt, Yew, Flutter,....

samwillis 5y ago
Although WASM is brilliant, I don't think its right to use it to recreate the whole UI drawn to canvas. You loose all accessibility integration with the OS either locking out users or making your life much harder reimplementing it. WASM is perfect for graphics and backend processing, see Figma it uses WASM for drawing the canvas but the rest of the ui is native web with all the accessibility tools that come with the browser/os.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  My life was made much harder when Flash and Silverlight like tooling was taken away. The craziness of faking UIs with paragraph tags massaged via CSS and JavaScript into a drop down menu. Now they are back, even Google Docs is moving into it.
jms55 5y ago
Yew doesn't use the canvas, it uses the DOM iirc.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I stand corrected on that one.
- gernb 5y ago
  Wrong https://flutter.github.io/samples/web/form_app/#/form_widgets https://flutter.github.io/samples/web/form_app/#/form_widget...
  - kitkat_new 5y ago
    He talks about Yew [0], and you link to flutter? [0] https://yew.rs/ https://yew.rs/
    - gernb 5y ago
      Sorry.

saurik 5y ago

That's a philosophical issue, not a functionality one: something can work reasonably well even if you hate the world that results. (And I sadly just can't buy the philosophical issue anyway, frankly: if anything, I'd argue the biggest flaw with the web is it has a million nit-picky features when it should ONLY offer JavaScript+canvas, as third parties have a hope of reimplementing that correctly, unlike HTML+CSS. To the extent to which there were important behaviors people liked, such as accessibility, those should come from higher-level frameworks instead of being baked into the lowest level of the system.)

ohgodplsno 5y ago
accessibility is not a behavior that "people liked". It is enshrined in law in so many countries that they _have_ to be at the lowest level of the system.
- saurik 5y ago
  I would argue it was enshrined in law because people liked it so much they demanded it, so maybe that's a semantics issue? That said, I do not believe the law insists that it be in the lowest level: the law merely insists that it exist for every site. It is convenient to put it at the lowest level if possible, but now it is just one more thing that literally every browser has to implement from scratch, and so the world that results is that the only company capable of making a good web browser is Google. There are sane reasons why accessibility is not considered part of a CPU (and thereby by most other reasonable runtime engines).
  - ohgodplsno 5y ago
    People with reading disabilities, vision issues, etc are rarely the ones being heavily represented in parliaments. Accessibility is truly a case of things being earned through spilled blood, and while there's probably much fewer people dying because they can't read the text on your website, it's a natural extension of the physical world. While the laws do not say that it should be up to the browser, it becomes natural that this moves to the lowest common denominator. Should it not be part of browsers, the moment any dominant browser comes in (say, Chrome) and implements it would lead to thousands of websites relying on this behavior from the browser, leading to "Works only on Chrome" situations, and other browsers most likely rushing behind to also support that feature.