5 ms·

Norwegian here. We are probably already raking in millions extra today as prices soars, but if there was a referendum vote tonight and if could vote to not take

Norwegian here. We are probably already raking in millions extra today as prices soars, but if there was a referendum vote tonight and if could vote to not take advantage of the situation but rather help fellow Europeans that would be my vote. I guess I am not alone.

another_why 5y ago
How noble. What about poor European countries, will you pay for their gas too? Or they will pay for your opportunity of being "noble"?
- mcv 5y ago
  That's what he's saying: help other countries instead of raking in more money.
  - another_why 5y ago
    Which countries? Higher prices for gas will rise prices for everything, food including.
    - eitland 5y ago
      I meant all European democracies I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable.
      - another_why 5y ago
        I wasn't trying to make it subtle, but it's not a topic of the discussion and talking about it will take too much time. Though in a long enough dispute, it eventually goes to the basics and false beliefs, nothing to undermine there.
      - another_why 5y ago
        > I meant all European democracies Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise > I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. > [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable. Won't happen during your lifetime.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Muahahahaa! Wow, man, you're funny! > Surprise Yes, indeed: I am surprised anyone with more than a vacuum between their ears could think that.
        mcv 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin. Without free press and free speech, elections don't mean much.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin I believe, they just don't have/don't want to spend money on showing a real election circus, like in US. Russia is a poor country and making people believe that a cross in a white form means something if you are not a billionaire and can't get billionaires to support you with money, costs a lot. You have "free press" and "free speech" in the internet, doesn't seem to help much, does it?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        mcv 5y ago
        It's significantly better than not having them. And the argument "we're too poor to be a democracy" is bullshit. The real issue is that the country is too corrupt to be a democracy. (The US also has this problem, but to a much lesser extent. Well, somewhat lesser, at least. Trump has certainly has certainly tried to follow Putin there.) And of course the country is too oppressed to be a democracy. You can't have meaningful elections if you don't have free speech and free press.
_0w8t 5y ago
I see that even among Norwegian greens there is growing understanding that drilling for more gas is perhaps lesser evil, as it reduce dependence on Russian gas in Europe.
- another_why 5y ago
  Yeah, lets destroy the planet together. Frecking is green now
  - eitland 5y ago
    Fossils create a mess in 25 or 100 years. Not stopping Russia can create bigger problems in 1 or 2 years (and it will come on top of existing problems.)
    - another_why 5y ago
      Stopping from what? And what bigger problems?
      - eitland 5y ago
        > Stopping from what? And what bigger problems? Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. Russia is a poor country without science, technologies and a fossil fuel economy. Everything left from USSR is already fucked up or a one step from being fucked up. There are no means of production to even think about repeating smth like that. The market fall and the money which will be spent on that new "republic" is already enough to send everything to hell, not even talking about the global market fall. The only place you can get an image of it as an almighty Empire is in tv. > The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. The fact that Russia is less poor than other exUSSR republics and could easily conquer them doesn't mean that it has resources for a direct conflict with NATO, but Putin can frown intimidatingly in TV, that's for sure. 150k of military troops my ass. > BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe. what

another_why 5y ago

How noble. What about poor European countries, will you pay for their gas too? Or they will pay for your opportunity of being "noble"?

mcv 5y ago
That's what he's saying: help other countries instead of raking in more money.
- another_why 5y ago
  Which countries? Higher prices for gas will rise prices for everything, food including.
  - eitland 5y ago
    I meant all European democracies I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable.
    - another_why 5y ago
      I wasn't trying to make it subtle, but it's not a topic of the discussion and talking about it will take too much time. Though in a long enough dispute, it eventually goes to the basics and false beliefs, nothing to undermine there.
    - another_why 5y ago
      > I meant all European democracies Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise > I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. > [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable. Won't happen during your lifetime.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Muahahahaa! Wow, man, you're funny! > Surprise Yes, indeed: I am surprised anyone with more than a vacuum between their ears could think that.
      - mcv 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin. Without free press and free speech, elections don't mean much.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin I believe, they just don't have/don't want to spend money on showing a real election circus, like in US. Russia is a poor country and making people believe that a cross in a white form means something if you are not a billionaire and can't get billionaires to support you with money, costs a lot. You have "free press" and "free speech" in the internet, doesn't seem to help much, does it?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        mcv 5y ago
        It's significantly better than not having them. And the argument "we're too poor to be a democracy" is bullshit. The real issue is that the country is too corrupt to be a democracy. (The US also has this problem, but to a much lesser extent. Well, somewhat lesser, at least. Trump has certainly has certainly tried to follow Putin there.) And of course the country is too oppressed to be a democracy. You can't have meaningful elections if you don't have free speech and free press.

_0w8t 5y ago

I see that even among Norwegian greens there is growing understanding that drilling for more gas is perhaps lesser evil, as it reduce dependence on Russian gas in Europe.

another_why 5y ago
Yeah, lets destroy the planet together. Frecking is green now
- eitland 5y ago
  Fossils create a mess in 25 or 100 years. Not stopping Russia can create bigger problems in 1 or 2 years (and it will come on top of existing problems.)
  - another_why 5y ago
    Stopping from what? And what bigger problems?
    - eitland 5y ago
      > Stopping from what? And what bigger problems? Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe.
      - another_why 5y ago
        > Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. Russia is a poor country without science, technologies and a fossil fuel economy. Everything left from USSR is already fucked up or a one step from being fucked up. There are no means of production to even think about repeating smth like that. The market fall and the money which will be spent on that new "republic" is already enough to send everything to hell, not even talking about the global market fall. The only place you can get an image of it as an almighty Empire is in tv. > The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. The fact that Russia is less poor than other exUSSR republics and could easily conquer them doesn't mean that it has resources for a direct conflict with NATO, but Putin can frown intimidatingly in TV, that's for sure. 150k of military troops my ass. > BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe. what