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Thanks Germans. Paying our gas bill will be fun here in the Netherlands.

by tiku 5y ago

eitland 5y ago
Norwegian here. We are probably already raking in millions extra today as prices soars, but if there was a referendum vote tonight and if could vote to not take advantage of the situation but rather help fellow Europeans that would be my vote. I guess I am not alone.
- another_why 5y ago
  How noble. What about poor European countries, will you pay for their gas too? Or they will pay for your opportunity of being "noble"?
  - mcv 5y ago
    That's what he's saying: help other countries instead of raking in more money.
    - another_why 5y ago
      Which countries? Higher prices for gas will rise prices for everything, food including.
      - eitland 5y ago
        I meant all European democracies I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable.
        another_why 5y ago
        I wasn't trying to make it subtle, but it's not a topic of the discussion and talking about it will take too much time. Though in a long enough dispute, it eventually goes to the basics and false beliefs, nothing to undermine there.
        another_why 5y ago
        > I meant all European democracies Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise > I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. > [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable. Won't happen during your lifetime.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Muahahahaa! Wow, man, you're funny! > Surprise Yes, indeed: I am surprised anyone with more than a vacuum between their ears could think that.
        mcv 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin. Without free press and free speech, elections don't mean much.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin I believe, they just don't have/don't want to spend money on showing a real election circus, like in US. Russia is a poor country and making people believe that a cross in a white form means something if you are not a billionaire and can't get billionaires to support you with money, costs a lot. You have "free press" and "free speech" in the internet, doesn't seem to help much, does it?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        mcv 5y ago
        It's significantly better than not having them. And the argument "we're too poor to be a democracy" is bullshit. The real issue is that the country is too corrupt to be a democracy. (The US also has this problem, but to a much lesser extent. Well, somewhat lesser, at least. Trump has certainly has certainly tried to follow Putin there.) And of course the country is too oppressed to be a democracy. You can't have meaningful elections if you don't have free speech and free press.
- _0w8t 5y ago
  I see that even among Norwegian greens there is growing understanding that drilling for more gas is perhaps lesser evil, as it reduce dependence on Russian gas in Europe.
  - another_why 5y ago
    Yeah, lets destroy the planet together. Frecking is green now
    - eitland 5y ago
      Fossils create a mess in 25 or 100 years. Not stopping Russia can create bigger problems in 1 or 2 years (and it will come on top of existing problems.)
      - another_why 5y ago
        Stopping from what? And what bigger problems?
        eitland 5y ago
        > Stopping from what? And what bigger problems? Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. Russia is a poor country without science, technologies and a fossil fuel economy. Everything left from USSR is already fucked up or a one step from being fucked up. There are no means of production to even think about repeating smth like that. The market fall and the money which will be spent on that new "republic" is already enough to send everything to hell, not even talking about the global market fall. The only place you can get an image of it as an almighty Empire is in tv. > The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. The fact that Russia is less poor than other exUSSR republics and could easily conquer them doesn't mean that it has resources for a direct conflict with NATO, but Putin can frown intimidatingly in TV, that's for sure. 150k of military troops my ass. > BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe. what
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Hopefully it'll be temporary; the Dutch government set reducing dependency on gas in motion years ago (electrification of houses, increase of green energy projects), and there are other suppliers who turned their ships around to supply to western Europe instead. I mean transport by ship will be more expensive than a direct gas pipeline, but hopefully it will be enough to avoid scarcity / loss of gas pressure. Anyway, it's not really Germany's fault is it? The pipeline came with a lot of strings attached, and with Russia posturing and capturing land, there already were a lot of tensions. It became a political tool. Existing gas pipelines run through the Ukraine, if those became obsolete due to Nord Stream 2, Ukraine would lose a bargaining chip with Europe.
- mcv 5y ago
  My house doesn't have a gas connection anymore. Let the sanctions come.
  - aequitas 5y ago
    A lot of our electricity is still produced using natural gas [0], so you would still be highly dependent on gas for your electricity prices. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_...
    - another_why 5y ago
      and the surge of gas prices will cause surge on literally everything.
tialaramex 5y ago
If it is the fault of the Germans, then it is more so the fault of the Russians, but honestly if the Netherlands doesn't have natural gas, why be shocked when other people raise prices for a substance you can't do without and must buy at any price? At least the Scottish have the argument that all things being equal they don't need Russian gas, so the only reason their prices are high is that if you've got a bunch of gas in Scotland, you should sell it all for $$$ to the Netherlands unless the price in Scotland rises too. How is the Netherlands on Electricity? Are you like Scotland on that too, where despite notionally making most of your electricity without needing gas, the market clearing price is determined by gas generators and so it soars because gas prices are high?
- nmehner 5y ago
  The Netherlands have/had fossil gas. But extracting it caused earthquakes: https://dutchreview.com/news/groningen-gas-tap-to-extract-nearly-twice-as-much-gas-in-spite-of-earthquakes/ https://dutchreview.com/news/groningen-gas-tap-to-extract-ne... So they decided to stop. But replacing the infrastructure depending on gas takes some time. For now they are dependent on imports.
alkonaut 5y ago
Buy a standard heat pump. Preferably do it in the 90s when it was common sense to get rid of domestic gas. In 2022 you should be on your second or third pump since your oil or gas burner was replaced.

Thanks Germans. Paying our gas bill will be fun here in the Netherlands.

by tiku 5y ago

Thanks Germans. Paying our gas bill will be fun here in the Netherlands.

Norwegian here. We are probably already raking in millions extra today as prices soars, but if there was a referendum vote tonight and if could vote to not take advantage of the situation but rather help fellow Europeans that would be my vote. I guess I am not alone.

another_why 5y ago
How noble. What about poor European countries, will you pay for their gas too? Or they will pay for your opportunity of being "noble"?
- mcv 5y ago
  That's what he's saying: help other countries instead of raking in more money.
  - another_why 5y ago
    Which countries? Higher prices for gas will rise prices for everything, food including.
    - eitland 5y ago
      I meant all European democracies I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable.
      - another_why 5y ago
        I wasn't trying to make it subtle, but it's not a topic of the discussion and talking about it will take too much time. Though in a long enough dispute, it eventually goes to the basics and false beliefs, nothing to undermine there.
      - another_why 5y ago
        > I meant all European democracies Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise > I think, temporarily[1] until we get this mess sorted. > [1]: In the long run oil and gas prices should probably increase until solar and nuclear power become very profitable. Won't happen during your lifetime.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Muahahahaa! Wow, man, you're funny! > Surprise Yes, indeed: I am surprised anyone with more than a vacuum between their ears could think that.
        mcv 5y ago
        > Russia is also a European democracy. Surprise Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin. Without free press and free speech, elections don't mean much.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Nasty surprises seem to happen to people who credibly oppose Putin I believe, they just don't have/don't want to spend money on showing a real election circus, like in US. Russia is a poor country and making people believe that a cross in a white form means something if you are not a billionaire and can't get billionaires to support you with money, costs a lot. You have "free press" and "free speech" in the internet, doesn't seem to help much, does it?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        mcv 5y ago
        It's significantly better than not having them. And the argument "we're too poor to be a democracy" is bullshit. The real issue is that the country is too corrupt to be a democracy. (The US also has this problem, but to a much lesser extent. Well, somewhat lesser, at least. Trump has certainly has certainly tried to follow Putin there.) And of course the country is too oppressed to be a democracy. You can't have meaningful elections if you don't have free speech and free press.
_0w8t 5y ago
I see that even among Norwegian greens there is growing understanding that drilling for more gas is perhaps lesser evil, as it reduce dependence on Russian gas in Europe.
- another_why 5y ago
  Yeah, lets destroy the planet together. Frecking is green now
  - eitland 5y ago
    Fossils create a mess in 25 or 100 years. Not stopping Russia can create bigger problems in 1 or 2 years (and it will come on top of existing problems.)
    - another_why 5y ago
      Stopping from what? And what bigger problems?
      - eitland 5y ago
        > Stopping from what? And what bigger problems? Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe.
        another_why 5y ago
        > Stopping Russia from copying 1930ies Germany and/or recreating USSR. Russia is a poor country without science, technologies and a fossil fuel economy. Everything left from USSR is already fucked up or a one step from being fucked up. There are no means of production to even think about repeating smth like that. The market fall and the money which will be spent on that new "republic" is already enough to send everything to hell, not even talking about the global market fall. The only place you can get an image of it as an almighty Empire is in tv. > The last 20 years Russia has been salami slicing Eastern Europe, taking one slice at the time. The fact that Russia is less poor than other exUSSR republics and could easily conquer them doesn't mean that it has resources for a direct conflict with NATO, but Putin can frown intimidatingly in TV, that's for sure. 150k of military troops my ass. > BTW: I think it would be a lot more consistent and believable if you didn't - in a short timespan - both try to criticise me for 1.) not wanting to give enough subsidized fuels to Europe 2.) wanting to subsidize fuels for Europe. what

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Hopefully it'll be temporary; the Dutch government set reducing dependency on gas in motion years ago (electrification of houses, increase of green energy projects), and there are other suppliers who turned their ships around to supply to western Europe instead. I mean transport by ship will be more expensive than a direct gas pipeline, but hopefully it will be enough to avoid scarcity / loss of gas pressure. Anyway, it's not really Germany's fault is it? The pipeline came with a lot of strings attached, and with Russia posturing and capturing land, there already were a lot of tensions. It became a political tool. Existing gas pipelines run through the Ukraine, if those became obsolete due to Nord Stream 2, Ukraine would lose a bargaining chip with Europe.

mcv 5y ago
My house doesn't have a gas connection anymore. Let the sanctions come.
- aequitas 5y ago
  A lot of our electricity is still produced using natural gas [0], so you would still be highly dependent on gas for your electricity prices. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_...
  - another_why 5y ago
    and the surge of gas prices will cause surge on literally everything.

tialaramex 5y ago

If it is the fault of the Germans, then it is more so the fault of the Russians, but honestly if the Netherlands doesn't have natural gas, why be shocked when other people raise prices for a substance you can't do without and must buy at any price? At least the Scottish have the argument that all things being equal they don't need Russian gas, so the only reason their prices are high is that if you've got a bunch of gas in Scotland, you should sell it all for $$$ to the Netherlands unless the price in Scotland rises too. How is the Netherlands on Electricity? Are you like Scotland on that too, where despite notionally making most of your electricity without needing gas, the market clearing price is determined by gas generators and so it soars because gas prices are high?

nmehner 5y ago
The Netherlands have/had fossil gas. But extracting it caused earthquakes: https://dutchreview.com/news/groningen-gas-tap-to-extract-nearly-twice-as-much-gas-in-spite-of-earthquakes/ https://dutchreview.com/news/groningen-gas-tap-to-extract-ne... So they decided to stop. But replacing the infrastructure depending on gas takes some time. For now they are dependent on imports.

alkonaut 5y ago

Buy a standard heat pump. Preferably do it in the 90s when it was common sense to get rid of domestic gas. In 2022 you should be on your second or third pump since your oil or gas burner was replaced.