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I hope I'm not ignoring, but it is possible. I don't know how to capture the instability in either region by some sort of a metric to make them comparable. Howe

I hope I'm not ignoring, but it is possible. I don't know how to capture the instability in either region by some sort of a metric to make them comparable. However, the examples you give seem almost insignificant in comparison to events at the same time in Europe. For example, in 1900s Soviet Union alone forcefully displaced more than 20 million people. In the 1700s and 1800s Europe saw several wars, which claimed millions of casualties each and were largely fought in areas where people in peaceful times would be producing and consuming nails. I think the US westward expansion and conflicts (with the exception of the Civil War) happened largely in the new areas and possibly had relatively little effect on the more established regions in the East. I could go on with more examples, but that would not increase my understanding. How could I better understand the instability in the US? As a hopefully illuminating example on the other side, some of the European instability is implicitly captured by the Wikipedia list of conflicts[1], keeping in mind that casualties are hundreds of thousands or even over a million deaths in many cases even though not listed. Are there similar (or more in-depth) resources that would indicate my ignorance and help me learn more about how the US expansion, conflicts and migration caused instability? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#18th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#18...

watwut 5y ago
I reacted to this "The colonizers of the US were largely immigrants from Europe, who were fleeing war, oppression, famine or other calamity. There has never been any comparable immigration from the US to Europe (or indeed to anywhere). To me this indicates very strongly which region has been stable or not." In terms of wars and moving away, US had a lot of action going on. US history is actually interesting. * 1695 - 1865 is period of slavery and thus massive forced movement of huge amounts of people. Especially by the last decades, there was a lot of movement of slaves within united states. By a lot, I mean really huge amounts due to business moving. * The whole native-american population was displaced or killed from majority of the continent in that span. Those areas did not magically appeared out of nowhere empty. * The war between north and south was actually major conflict. The leadup to it was bloody. The aftermath of it completely transformed economy and culture in the South. * South consequently went through short but real period of democratization and then closing up the politics to groups. * Approximately six million Black people moved from the American South to Northern by the beginning of 20 century. ------------ And before you say they did not produced nails, neither did peasants in Soviet Union all that much. That region was hugely rural, hugely behind the times in terms of industry or literacy.
- taneliv 5y ago
  The topic of slavery in the US is something that is not very familiar to me. One characteristic difference seems to be that the structure in Europe was largely that of serfdom. In that respect the massive forced movement that you mention is something that I definitely did not consider. The economic impact of slavery, and in the context of stability, especially that of abolition, is interesting. I should read up on that. I completely agree that the Civil War was a major conflict with a lot casualties and it redefined the society. But around the same time, there were four equally bloody and society defining wars in Europe (one of them resulting in the genocide of more than a million Circassian people, two others to the birth of the German nation state), and many more before and after those. As a matter of fact, Europe continues to suffer from a lot of instability, it seems like another war may break out between Russia and Ukraine any day now. I'd much prefer people made and used nails instead of raised conflicts.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > But around the same time, there were four equally bloody and society defining wars in Europe American history is not just civil war. Texas was annexed 1845 from Mexico and Mexican-American War was 1846-1848. Pretty close to civil war. > (one of them resulting in the genocide of more than a million Circassian people, two others to the birth of the German nation state), and many more before and after those. Indian removal (trail of tears) was around the time of civil war. The expanse was not nearly finished in the run up to it. In fact, expanse was what made it blew in a way, because of the "will the new states be slave states or free states" question. Lincoln himself signed laws that gave away a lot of tribal land. The genocidal acts happened after civil war. Also, when civil war ended, African Americans did engaged in politics and had real successes. In some states they were huge amount of population, over half sometimes. Which led to terrorist campaigns against those active in politics ultimately in loss of civil rights. That is not stability either. This was huge and long inner conflict. American history is different. But there was a lot going on since 1695. Is was a lot more then just civil war. Just like Russian history is a lot more then Communism, despite pretty much everyone ignoring run up to it.

watwut 5y ago

I reacted to this "The colonizers of the US were largely immigrants from Europe, who were fleeing war, oppression, famine or other calamity. There has never been any comparable immigration from the US to Europe (or indeed to anywhere). To me this indicates very strongly which region has been stable or not." In terms of wars and moving away, US had a lot of action going on. US history is actually interesting. * 1695 - 1865 is period of slavery and thus massive forced movement of huge amounts of people. Especially by the last decades, there was a lot of movement of slaves within united states. By a lot, I mean really huge amounts due to business moving. * The whole native-american population was displaced or killed from majority of the continent in that span. Those areas did not magically appeared out of nowhere empty. * The war between north and south was actually major conflict. The leadup to it was bloody. The aftermath of it completely transformed economy and culture in the South. * South consequently went through short but real period of democratization and then closing up the politics to groups. * Approximately six million Black people moved from the American South to Northern by the beginning of 20 century. ------------ And before you say they did not produced nails, neither did peasants in Soviet Union all that much. That region was hugely rural, hugely behind the times in terms of industry or literacy.

taneliv 5y ago
The topic of slavery in the US is something that is not very familiar to me. One characteristic difference seems to be that the structure in Europe was largely that of serfdom. In that respect the massive forced movement that you mention is something that I definitely did not consider. The economic impact of slavery, and in the context of stability, especially that of abolition, is interesting. I should read up on that. I completely agree that the Civil War was a major conflict with a lot casualties and it redefined the society. But around the same time, there were four equally bloody and society defining wars in Europe (one of them resulting in the genocide of more than a million Circassian people, two others to the birth of the German nation state), and many more before and after those. As a matter of fact, Europe continues to suffer from a lot of instability, it seems like another war may break out between Russia and Ukraine any day now. I'd much prefer people made and used nails instead of raised conflicts.
- watwut 5y ago
  > But around the same time, there were four equally bloody and society defining wars in Europe American history is not just civil war. Texas was annexed 1845 from Mexico and Mexican-American War was 1846-1848. Pretty close to civil war. > (one of them resulting in the genocide of more than a million Circassian people, two others to the birth of the German nation state), and many more before and after those. Indian removal (trail of tears) was around the time of civil war. The expanse was not nearly finished in the run up to it. In fact, expanse was what made it blew in a way, because of the "will the new states be slave states or free states" question. Lincoln himself signed laws that gave away a lot of tribal land. The genocidal acts happened after civil war. Also, when civil war ended, African Americans did engaged in politics and had real successes. In some states they were huge amount of population, over half sometimes. Which led to terrorist campaigns against those active in politics ultimately in loss of civil rights. That is not stability either. This was huge and long inner conflict. American history is different. But there was a lot going on since 1695. Is was a lot more then just civil war. Just like Russian history is a lot more then Communism, despite pretty much everyone ignoring run up to it.