10 ms·

I think people should be treated equally, and not given better or worse treatment based on their race.

by gcau 5y ago

vbezhenar 5y ago
That leads to some groups of people being excluded from certain selections. Culture is a thing.
- manigandham 5y ago
  Culture is by choice and can be changed. Not race. That’s the difference.
  - bloak 5y ago
    But it's not quite that simple, is it? You can change the culture of a child by forcibly separating them from their parents, putting them in a boarding school, beating them when they try to speak their mother tongue with other children, and so on, methods that have been successfully applied in Australia and Canada, I believe. Changing the culture of an adult is more difficult, though they may have tried similar methods rather more recently in ... you know where. You can to a certain extent change your "race" simply by changing your dress, hairstyle and name, provided your physical appearance is roughtly consistent with several "races", which is not an unusual situation in many of the societies in which "race" is a thing.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      Yes, it's that simple. Difficult is not impossible. Choice still exists. Meanwhile dress, hairstyle and name are not race, and race cannot be changed. You're making extraordinary reaches to redefine words and concepts, which is another societal problem.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Why is it necessary to deprive them of their mother tongue? There are plenty immigrants that speak multiple languages, and benefit from it. also: > forcibly separating them > beating them when why is violence necessary? What - specifically - are we trying to change?
- whiddershins 5y ago
  That concern is a valid concern but it is probably a bad idea for it to override every other concern.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Shouldn't groups be rewarded for the benefits of their culture? Or can you give example of this kind?
  - oblio 5y ago
    The problem is that a good chunk of those cultural benefits for some groups were: 1. They had better weapons and better immunity to diseases (Europeans vs Native Americans). 2. There were more of them (British Settlers vs French Settlers). So it's not like they were some true human achievements worthy of praise.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      How about just looking at 2 generations. If parents of a child work extra hard, work even weekends to send their child to extra classes, the child therefore has extra classes and spends more time studying, the parents don't spend all their money and are thrifty, don't move into the largest possible house but save to pay off their mortgage. And they create a better life for their children... Do you still think everyone should have equal opportunities and that child doesn't deserve anything better than someone who's parents didn't give a shit and wasted their lives? Well - to the child, it's obviously unfair if the parents didn't care. But to the parents who worked hard, it's equally unfair to blame the child and say they don't deserve a better life. This whole equity movement seems to always look at the child's perspective (surprise, in this age of childlike narcisim!) and never at the parents perspective, who wants to create a better life for future generations. But it's actually almost equally unfair to someone in both cases. Except in the parents case if you make it completely worthless to try and improve your child's life, you are taking away a large chunk of motivation for almost all people.
      - oblio 5y ago
        > Except in the parents case if you make it completely worthless to try and improve your child's life, you are taking away a large chunk of motivation for almost all people. Ever heard of slippery slopes? You just hit the bottom of the ravine. It's not "completely worthless" to try to improve your child's life and plenty of people have managed to live good lives without going to the absolute best college. Many haven't even finished college. You sound like you'd be very bitter if your kids fail at school, which is not a great place to be in. Plus, what does this say about the other people who are discriminated against daily? You just don't like it that now you have to give the "college talk" to your kids just like fathers of girls have always had to give the "some men are predators" talk to their daughters and African-Americans have had to give the "suicide by cop" talk to their kids.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  So the solution is to omit other groups instead? Who decides which groups get omitted?
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
shadowgovt 5y ago
Unfortunately, that doesn't lead to the desired outcome of equality of opportunity with regards race in the US because of the significance of initial conditions as regards outcomes in the US. Policies that ignore race increase the odds that black Americans who are born poor will die poor, and the proportion who are born poor is huge relative to other races because of the US history of slavery followed by overt discrimination. (Worth noting: it may be possible to achieve the same goals by affirmative action around poverty, not race... But would Daniel have been satisfied were he told he was too rich for the honors program?)
- janto 5y ago
  You're conflating opportunity with outcome.
  - lexapro 5y ago
    Discriminating against a race for generations and then ignoring race in policies is NOT equal opportunity. Both the rules and the starting conditions have to be equal if the goal is equal opportunity.
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      Which races are you referring to? I suppose you're referring to the racist caste system in India, right?
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        What is India's approach to this challenge? Do they have something analogous to US affirmative action in universities to encourage historically lower-caste Indians to pursue higher education, or do they approach the issue another way?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
yucky 5y ago
It's embarrassing that large segments of society (particularly younger) see this perfectly logical statement as racist.
vippy 5y ago
[dead]

I think people should be treated equally, and not given better or worse treatment based on their race.

by gcau 5y ago

I think people should be treated equally, and not given better or worse treatment based on their race.

vbezhenar 5y ago

That leads to some groups of people being excluded from certain selections. Culture is a thing.

manigandham 5y ago
Culture is by choice and can be changed. Not race. That’s the difference.
- bloak 5y ago
  But it's not quite that simple, is it? You can change the culture of a child by forcibly separating them from their parents, putting them in a boarding school, beating them when they try to speak their mother tongue with other children, and so on, methods that have been successfully applied in Australia and Canada, I believe. Changing the culture of an adult is more difficult, though they may have tried similar methods rather more recently in ... you know where. You can to a certain extent change your "race" simply by changing your dress, hairstyle and name, provided your physical appearance is roughtly consistent with several "races", which is not an unusual situation in many of the societies in which "race" is a thing.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    Yes, it's that simple. Difficult is not impossible. Choice still exists. Meanwhile dress, hairstyle and name are not race, and race cannot be changed. You're making extraordinary reaches to redefine words and concepts, which is another societal problem.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Why is it necessary to deprive them of their mother tongue? There are plenty immigrants that speak multiple languages, and benefit from it. also: > forcibly separating them > beating them when why is violence necessary? What - specifically - are we trying to change?
whiddershins 5y ago
That concern is a valid concern but it is probably a bad idea for it to override every other concern.
Chris2048 5y ago
Shouldn't groups be rewarded for the benefits of their culture? Or can you give example of this kind?
- oblio 5y ago
  The problem is that a good chunk of those cultural benefits for some groups were: 1. They had better weapons and better immunity to diseases (Europeans vs Native Americans). 2. There were more of them (British Settlers vs French Settlers). So it's not like they were some true human achievements worthy of praise.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    How about just looking at 2 generations. If parents of a child work extra hard, work even weekends to send their child to extra classes, the child therefore has extra classes and spends more time studying, the parents don't spend all their money and are thrifty, don't move into the largest possible house but save to pay off their mortgage. And they create a better life for their children... Do you still think everyone should have equal opportunities and that child doesn't deserve anything better than someone who's parents didn't give a shit and wasted their lives? Well - to the child, it's obviously unfair if the parents didn't care. But to the parents who worked hard, it's equally unfair to blame the child and say they don't deserve a better life. This whole equity movement seems to always look at the child's perspective (surprise, in this age of childlike narcisim!) and never at the parents perspective, who wants to create a better life for future generations. But it's actually almost equally unfair to someone in both cases. Except in the parents case if you make it completely worthless to try and improve your child's life, you are taking away a large chunk of motivation for almost all people.
    - oblio 5y ago
      > Except in the parents case if you make it completely worthless to try and improve your child's life, you are taking away a large chunk of motivation for almost all people. Ever heard of slippery slopes? You just hit the bottom of the ravine. It's not "completely worthless" to try to improve your child's life and plenty of people have managed to live good lives without going to the absolute best college. Many haven't even finished college. You sound like you'd be very bitter if your kids fail at school, which is not a great place to be in. Plus, what does this say about the other people who are discriminated against daily? You just don't like it that now you have to give the "college talk" to your kids just like fathers of girls have always had to give the "some men are predators" talk to their daughters and African-Americans have had to give the "suicide by cop" talk to their kids.
marcellus23 5y ago
So the solution is to omit other groups instead? Who decides which groups get omitted?
AlgorithmicTime 5y ago

shadowgovt 5y ago

Unfortunately, that doesn't lead to the desired outcome of equality of opportunity with regards race in the US because of the significance of initial conditions as regards outcomes in the US. Policies that ignore race increase the odds that black Americans who are born poor will die poor, and the proportion who are born poor is huge relative to other races because of the US history of slavery followed by overt discrimination. (Worth noting: it may be possible to achieve the same goals by affirmative action around poverty, not race... But would Daniel have been satisfied were he told he was too rich for the honors program?)

janto 5y ago
You're conflating opportunity with outcome.
- lexapro 5y ago
  Discriminating against a race for generations and then ignoring race in policies is NOT equal opportunity. Both the rules and the starting conditions have to be equal if the goal is equal opportunity.
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    Which races are you referring to? I suppose you're referring to the racist caste system in India, right?
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      What is India's approach to this challenge? Do they have something analogous to US affirmative action in universities to encourage historically lower-caste Indians to pursue higher education, or do they approach the issue another way?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

yucky 5y ago

It's embarrassing that large segments of society (particularly younger) see this perfectly logical statement as racist.

vippy 5y ago

[dead]