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I guess the difference is, there was still a lot of substance behind Jobs. And delivering (mostly) good products. Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al

I guess the difference is, there was still a lot of substance behind Jobs. And delivering (mostly) good products. Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend Frauds have always been with us - charismatic frauds, even. That's generally how they defraud. How many times have people sold things like the Eiffel tower or various bridges around the world? How else did we get to Ponzi schemes and the MLMs that are the fallout (and technically totally not pyramid schemes)?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > Frauds have always been with us ... This is the excuse of frauds - to try to normalize it. The amount of fraud is something we can have a large impact on, just like other diseases, and the frauds are responsible for their behavior - there is no fate or destiny that makes them do it. They have free will and make choices to hurt others. Currently, we aren't doing enough about fraud, and it's Orwellian to see people making efforts to normalize it.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    It isn't that folks normalize fraud, but rather that fraud has been a thread in humanity for, well, a very very long time indeed, probably before we wrote this stuff down. In other words, it is normal for societies to have some fraud - though, it isn't a "normal" behavior since most folks aren't out defrauding folks on a large scale. People act like fraud is a modern thing, and it isn't - and definitely isn't a sign that we are just doing worse now than in some romanticized past. If we don't acknowledge that it is a thing humans do and have done for a long time, our solutions will never be adequate (if that is possible). We really should be learning from the past and applying some of those lessons to the modern ways folks do fraud. Charisma has been intertwined with fraud for eons as well. If something is fairly common among fraudsters, then it benefits us to point this out.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      That's quite a strawperson - I haven't seen anyone say anything like that. Can you give some examples? The issue is the amount of fraud, obviously. My point is that people keep trying to downplay it and normalize it, including, IMHO, the comments in this thread. My perception is that the amount is much higher now than even the recent past, and that it's normalized and even celebrated by some.

I guess the difference is, there was still a lot of substance behind Jobs. And delivering (mostly) good products. Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago

Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend Frauds have always been with us - charismatic frauds, even. That's generally how they defraud. How many times have people sold things like the Eiffel tower or various bridges around the world? How else did we get to Ponzi schemes and the MLMs that are the fallout (and technically totally not pyramid schemes)?

wolverine876 5y ago
> Frauds have always been with us ... This is the excuse of frauds - to try to normalize it. The amount of fraud is something we can have a large impact on, just like other diseases, and the frauds are responsible for their behavior - there is no fate or destiny that makes them do it. They have free will and make choices to hurt others. Currently, we aren't doing enough about fraud, and it's Orwellian to see people making efforts to normalize it.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  It isn't that folks normalize fraud, but rather that fraud has been a thread in humanity for, well, a very very long time indeed, probably before we wrote this stuff down. In other words, it is normal for societies to have some fraud - though, it isn't a "normal" behavior since most folks aren't out defrauding folks on a large scale. People act like fraud is a modern thing, and it isn't - and definitely isn't a sign that we are just doing worse now than in some romanticized past. If we don't acknowledge that it is a thing humans do and have done for a long time, our solutions will never be adequate (if that is possible). We really should be learning from the past and applying some of those lessons to the modern ways folks do fraud. Charisma has been intertwined with fraud for eons as well. If something is fairly common among fraudsters, then it benefits us to point this out.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    That's quite a strawperson - I haven't seen anyone say anything like that. Can you give some examples? The issue is the amount of fraud, obviously. My point is that people keep trying to downplay it and normalize it, including, IMHO, the comments in this thread. My perception is that the amount is much higher now than even the recent past, and that it's normalized and even celebrated by some.