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I launched the game on PS5 with 1.5, and during the first few minutes of the Streetkid storyline, saw several characters T posing. This is a year and a half aft

I launched the game on PS5 with 1.5, and during the first few minutes of the Streetkid storyline, saw several characters T posing. This is a year and a half after original release, for a game that has several major delays as it is before release. This kind of jank wasn’t acceptable in the 90s and 2000s, let alone in 2020-2022. It’s amazing how incompetent this team has become.

agilob 5y ago
This? Since CP there were a few releases of other big titles that got worse scores than CP
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
What is "T posing"?
- simongray 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose
- agilob 5y ago
  NPC sometimes take T pose and stand still https://duckduckgo.com/?q=t+pose+cyberpunk&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=t+pose+cyberpunk&iax=images&ia=ima...
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Ok so it means they botched the animation of some characters?
    - foxfluff 5y ago
      The animations are fine but the game fails to load them. As it fails other assets too, for example you might see your main character in a cutscene with her tits out because the clothes didn't load. [1] At launch the game had you T-pose without pants while riding a motorcycle... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/sx031p/started_a_new_playthrough_and_this_cutscene_seems/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/sx031p/start...
    - codemusings 5y ago
      Game engines typically spawn character model entities with this pose by default. Which means if you see this then the NPC's scripted loop hasn't even been initiated at this point. This can be a bug obviously but it could also be due to performance since a lot of game engine pipelines are async and some of these tasks might not have been completed in time. It's not exactly an easy problem to solve (simulating crowds in a huge city without any organic view distance portals) but I guess they could have also saved themselves a lot of pain by not targeting legacy systems or maybe make less ambitious claims about their game.
      - LeoNatan25 5y ago
        I think this is a problem that is specific to the animation system, not necessarily the entire scripting system, as the characters are still following their scripts and driving/shooting; it’s just that their animation is broken.
    - short_sells_poo 5y ago
      It's been ages since I've left gamedev, but generally characters and creatures are animated by constructing an actual skeletal structure inside their body (usually called a mesh). Points on the mesh are then mapped with various weights to the bones in the skeleton. When a bone moves, points on the body are moved along with it depending on the weighting. You can think of it like attaching muscles to bones, which determines how the "flesh" moves when bones move/rotate. What you animate then is not the "flesh", but the skeleton. You tell the hand to move to a certain position, and then a constrained optimization problem is solved to extend the arm and hand while keeping the joint limits in mind. The most convenient default shape to set up the skeletal structure of a humanoid is the T-pose, so this is usually the shape humanoids take in games before any animation logic is applied to them. If you see a T-pose in a game, odds are that the animation system crapped out. The animation system may have crashed but the error was swallowed to keep the game chugging along.
- azeirah 5y ago
  A human standing in a pose that looks like a T. So standing up straight, arms stretched out to both sides. I'm not entirely certain but I believe the T-pose is the "default" position for characters before their animations start. So it's just really sloppy game dev work. As if the game suddenly only has lego characters that don't have animations anymore.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    T-pose is the default/neutral stance for character rig/skeleton iirc, makes it easier for modelers etc to work on the asset as they don't have things hidden by the model.
haunter 5y ago
On the official patch reveal stream random cars were still blowing up... https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyTenuousLatteBloodTrail-QuTfEAEzIHjwNUsb https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyTenuousLatteBloodTrail-QuTfEAEz...
- Hamuko 5y ago
  I think there was also a ragdoll that spazzed out against some props after a takedown during the pre-recorded next-gen preview video that was shown at the beginning. EDIT: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1298832987?t=00h21m33s https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1298832987?t=00h21m33s Remembered correctly
- cyber_kinetist 5y ago
  It seems that the devs are experiencing some serious stability issues with their physics engine (which is likely homebrewed), and is causing most of the bugs the players are complaining about (the next problematic being character AI and animation). Which I understand, since I also spent some time implementing my own physics engine and encountered the sorts of bugs similar to these... (though I still expect veteran engine devs to do a lot better than me!)
  - erinaceousjones 5y ago
    It's like everyone's forgotten entirely about the (wonderful) madness of Havok which characterises basically every Bethesda and Source Engine 2 game... The sound of agressive slapping and thumping as a corpse or four hundred cheese wheels get caught in the ground is music to my ears, bringing me back to the halcyon days of my youth when times were simpler and video games were...... Still a humongous crunch culture and populated with vocally angry impatient dorks for fans, but physics glitches were apparently just part of a game's charm back then?
    - bob1029 5y ago
      We took what we could get. Back then, the sound of 4000 cheese wheels rubbing ominously against other surfaces was one of the most glorious experiences available. Just the fact that it resembled any functionality at all was impressive to us.
ginko 5y ago
Maybe in 2077 T posing is just a fad like dabbing has been in recent years.
- crtasm 5y ago
  If it gets people to shoot video landscape instead of portrait I'm all for it.
askvictor 5y ago
Wasn't really an option in the 90s (and mostly 2000s) as games shipped on physical media. No patches, no updates.
- LeoNatan25 5y ago
  There were patches in the 90s, and certainly in 2000s. Perhaps not on consoles, but certainly on PC. What I meant was certain notorious PC RPG games, which became cult classic despite their bugginess (Gothic, Elder Scrolls, etc.)
moss2 5y ago
Let's be more empathetic to the developers than call them "incompetent". It might be that they are burnt out from years if crunch, investor expectations and harassment from fans.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- emsy 5y ago
  Incompetent is defined by Merriam-Webster as „lacking the qualities needed for effective action“ and „unable to function properly“. Incompetent is the correct word, all things considered. Protecting the feelings of the people involved by mincing words is not going to help them very much in the end.
  - lucideer 5y ago
    Citing technical definitions of a term used to critique individual humans is unhelpful and splitting hairs. Even if I entertain your nitpicking, the former definition (lacking qualities) is still unfair.
  - mort96 5y ago
    But we don't know that the developers are lacking those qualities? It's certainly possible that the only problem at CDPR and the only problem with the development of Cyberpunk 2077 is that the programmers and artists are bad (or "lacking the qualities needed for effective action"). But it's certainly also possible that the artists, developers and maybe even low-level managers are perfectly capable workers but placed in circumstances where even the most competent workers would produce a sub-par product, no? This isn't about mincing word, this is about correctly attributing blame.
    - LeoNatan25 5y ago
      Notice I didn't only blame the developers. I said "team". Management is part of that team. But where there is smoke, there usually is fire, and probably some of the blame of this technical failure of a game lies with developers also.
ur-whale 5y ago
>saw several characters T posing For those unfamiliar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose
Dah00n 5y ago
I'm so glad I got it for PC and not for my PS5! I had one bug in a complete play-through - where I had to reload to trigger a quest - otherwise the game worked as intended from release day.
- smcl 5y ago
  I had a few that looked silly, like a floating cigarette I encountered within the first minute of playing or a car clipping into the ground or various T-posing models. But they weren't so game-changingly bad that they ruined anything for me
  - LeoNatan25 5y ago
    To me, such immersion breaking bugs are the worst, especially in an RPG that is supposed to immerse you in a world.
trevormcneal 5y ago
apparently more budget, more advanced technology and team members a game has, crappier it gets. 90s games were simpler due to lot of restrictions, but most main stream titles were quite polished. this company sure made several mistakes on the hiring process and team management, I just can't imagine how something like this went to production.
- maccard 5y ago
  > apparently more budget, more advanced technology and team members a game has, crappier it gets. That's just not fair. Expectations have changed, technology has changed and team sizes have grown to accomodate the desires of the audience. With this extra scope comes extra risk which has been poorly managed. > but most main stream titles were quite polished. This is your nostalgia talking, and there's a huge amount of survivorship bias at play here. There were plenty of games from the 80s and 90s period that were anything from crap to just straight up unplayable, and they were just left in that state.
  - borodi 5y ago
    I agree there is a lot of survivorship bias, but it seems like every triple AAA game that releases is an unfun buggy mess. It feels like they like passion and have become too corporate. Like they focused on what features the game has to have instead of being a fun game. And by having so many features of course you have more area for bugs. Vampire survivors, a game developed by a single person provided me with more fun than cyberpunk, the game is played with just WASD.
    - maccard 5y ago
      > but it seems like every triple AAA game that releases is an unfun buggy mess. Horizon forbidden west released late last week and is a AAA title that has been well received, is polished and great fun. There are still many AAA titles released that aren't unfun buggy messes. > Vampire survivors, a game developed by a single person provided me with more fun than cyberpunk, the game is played with just WASD. That doesnt mean all AAA games are bad.
wongarsu 5y ago
In the 90s and 2000s console makers still did strict quality assurance for all games on their platform, mostly as a consequence of the video game crash of 1983, which was in large part caused by bad games. Something as buggy as Cyberpunk 2077 wouldn't have been allowed. Since then those checks have relaxed considerably, basically to a level of "if it runs, you can ship it". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
  Gamers have proven that they will happily buy broken games so they can get away with it.
  - okasaki 5y ago
    A game's function is to be entertaining, so if the customer is entertained then the product can't really be said to be broken.
- sirl1on 5y ago
  I don't necessarily think they only had higher QA standards back then. Back then you delivered the game on a physical medium, i.e. CD/DVD-ROM and could not expect the customer to be 24/7 online. If you did mess up your Golden Master or did not catch game breaking bugs, this could severely damage your revenue during your main sales window.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
As far as I can tell, there's really just one bug underlying most of the issues, and its that there is so much content in the game, that it messes up trying to load and unload objects. And a lot of it is failed attempts to adapt it for consoles.
totetsu 5y ago
A bug that makes penises stick out of female character pants on the customisation screen is quintessential 2020.

agilob 5y ago

This? Since CP there were a few releases of other big titles that got worse scores than CP

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

What is "T posing"?

simongray 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose
agilob 5y ago
NPC sometimes take T pose and stand still https://duckduckgo.com/?q=t+pose+cyberpunk&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=t+pose+cyberpunk&iax=images&ia=ima...
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Ok so it means they botched the animation of some characters?
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    The animations are fine but the game fails to load them. As it fails other assets too, for example you might see your main character in a cutscene with her tits out because the clothes didn't load. [1] At launch the game had you T-pose without pants while riding a motorcycle... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/sx031p/started_a_new_playthrough_and_this_cutscene_seems/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/sx031p/start...
  - codemusings 5y ago
    Game engines typically spawn character model entities with this pose by default. Which means if you see this then the NPC's scripted loop hasn't even been initiated at this point. This can be a bug obviously but it could also be due to performance since a lot of game engine pipelines are async and some of these tasks might not have been completed in time. It's not exactly an easy problem to solve (simulating crowds in a huge city without any organic view distance portals) but I guess they could have also saved themselves a lot of pain by not targeting legacy systems or maybe make less ambitious claims about their game.
    - LeoNatan25 5y ago
      I think this is a problem that is specific to the animation system, not necessarily the entire scripting system, as the characters are still following their scripts and driving/shooting; it’s just that their animation is broken.
  - short_sells_poo 5y ago
    It's been ages since I've left gamedev, but generally characters and creatures are animated by constructing an actual skeletal structure inside their body (usually called a mesh). Points on the mesh are then mapped with various weights to the bones in the skeleton. When a bone moves, points on the body are moved along with it depending on the weighting. You can think of it like attaching muscles to bones, which determines how the "flesh" moves when bones move/rotate. What you animate then is not the "flesh", but the skeleton. You tell the hand to move to a certain position, and then a constrained optimization problem is solved to extend the arm and hand while keeping the joint limits in mind. The most convenient default shape to set up the skeletal structure of a humanoid is the T-pose, so this is usually the shape humanoids take in games before any animation logic is applied to them. If you see a T-pose in a game, odds are that the animation system crapped out. The animation system may have crashed but the error was swallowed to keep the game chugging along.
azeirah 5y ago
A human standing in a pose that looks like a T. So standing up straight, arms stretched out to both sides. I'm not entirely certain but I believe the T-pose is the "default" position for characters before their animations start. So it's just really sloppy game dev work. As if the game suddenly only has lego characters that don't have animations anymore.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  T-pose is the default/neutral stance for character rig/skeleton iirc, makes it easier for modelers etc to work on the asset as they don't have things hidden by the model.

haunter 5y ago

On the official patch reveal stream random cars were still blowing up... https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyTenuousLatteBloodTrail-QuTfEAEzIHjwNUsb https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyTenuousLatteBloodTrail-QuTfEAEz...

Hamuko 5y ago
I think there was also a ragdoll that spazzed out against some props after a takedown during the pre-recorded next-gen preview video that was shown at the beginning. EDIT: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1298832987?t=00h21m33s https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1298832987?t=00h21m33s Remembered correctly
cyber_kinetist 5y ago
It seems that the devs are experiencing some serious stability issues with their physics engine (which is likely homebrewed), and is causing most of the bugs the players are complaining about (the next problematic being character AI and animation). Which I understand, since I also spent some time implementing my own physics engine and encountered the sorts of bugs similar to these... (though I still expect veteran engine devs to do a lot better than me!)
- erinaceousjones 5y ago
  It's like everyone's forgotten entirely about the (wonderful) madness of Havok which characterises basically every Bethesda and Source Engine 2 game... The sound of agressive slapping and thumping as a corpse or four hundred cheese wheels get caught in the ground is music to my ears, bringing me back to the halcyon days of my youth when times were simpler and video games were...... Still a humongous crunch culture and populated with vocally angry impatient dorks for fans, but physics glitches were apparently just part of a game's charm back then?
  - bob1029 5y ago
    We took what we could get. Back then, the sound of 4000 cheese wheels rubbing ominously against other surfaces was one of the most glorious experiences available. Just the fact that it resembled any functionality at all was impressive to us.

ginko 5y ago

Maybe in 2077 T posing is just a fad like dabbing has been in recent years.

crtasm 5y ago
If it gets people to shoot video landscape instead of portrait I'm all for it.

askvictor 5y ago

Wasn't really an option in the 90s (and mostly 2000s) as games shipped on physical media. No patches, no updates.

LeoNatan25 5y ago
There were patches in the 90s, and certainly in 2000s. Perhaps not on consoles, but certainly on PC. What I meant was certain notorious PC RPG games, which became cult classic despite their bugginess (Gothic, Elder Scrolls, etc.)

moss2 5y ago

Let's be more empathetic to the developers than call them "incompetent". It might be that they are burnt out from years if crunch, investor expectations and harassment from fans.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
emsy 5y ago
Incompetent is defined by Merriam-Webster as „lacking the qualities needed for effective action“ and „unable to function properly“. Incompetent is the correct word, all things considered. Protecting the feelings of the people involved by mincing words is not going to help them very much in the end.
- lucideer 5y ago
  Citing technical definitions of a term used to critique individual humans is unhelpful and splitting hairs. Even if I entertain your nitpicking, the former definition (lacking qualities) is still unfair.
- mort96 5y ago
  But we don't know that the developers are lacking those qualities? It's certainly possible that the only problem at CDPR and the only problem with the development of Cyberpunk 2077 is that the programmers and artists are bad (or "lacking the qualities needed for effective action"). But it's certainly also possible that the artists, developers and maybe even low-level managers are perfectly capable workers but placed in circumstances where even the most competent workers would produce a sub-par product, no? This isn't about mincing word, this is about correctly attributing blame.
  - LeoNatan25 5y ago
    Notice I didn't only blame the developers. I said "team". Management is part of that team. But where there is smoke, there usually is fire, and probably some of the blame of this technical failure of a game lies with developers also.

ur-whale 5y ago

>saw several characters T posing For those unfamiliar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-pose

Dah00n 5y ago

I'm so glad I got it for PC and not for my PS5! I had one bug in a complete play-through - where I had to reload to trigger a quest - otherwise the game worked as intended from release day.

smcl 5y ago
I had a few that looked silly, like a floating cigarette I encountered within the first minute of playing or a car clipping into the ground or various T-posing models. But they weren't so game-changingly bad that they ruined anything for me
- LeoNatan25 5y ago
  To me, such immersion breaking bugs are the worst, especially in an RPG that is supposed to immerse you in a world.

trevormcneal 5y ago

apparently more budget, more advanced technology and team members a game has, crappier it gets. 90s games were simpler due to lot of restrictions, but most main stream titles were quite polished. this company sure made several mistakes on the hiring process and team management, I just can't imagine how something like this went to production.

maccard 5y ago
> apparently more budget, more advanced technology and team members a game has, crappier it gets. That's just not fair. Expectations have changed, technology has changed and team sizes have grown to accomodate the desires of the audience. With this extra scope comes extra risk which has been poorly managed. > but most main stream titles were quite polished. This is your nostalgia talking, and there's a huge amount of survivorship bias at play here. There were plenty of games from the 80s and 90s period that were anything from crap to just straight up unplayable, and they were just left in that state.
- borodi 5y ago
  I agree there is a lot of survivorship bias, but it seems like every triple AAA game that releases is an unfun buggy mess. It feels like they like passion and have become too corporate. Like they focused on what features the game has to have instead of being a fun game. And by having so many features of course you have more area for bugs. Vampire survivors, a game developed by a single person provided me with more fun than cyberpunk, the game is played with just WASD.
  - maccard 5y ago
    > but it seems like every triple AAA game that releases is an unfun buggy mess. Horizon forbidden west released late last week and is a AAA title that has been well received, is polished and great fun. There are still many AAA titles released that aren't unfun buggy messes. > Vampire survivors, a game developed by a single person provided me with more fun than cyberpunk, the game is played with just WASD. That doesnt mean all AAA games are bad.

wongarsu 5y ago

In the 90s and 2000s console makers still did strict quality assurance for all games on their platform, mostly as a consequence of the video game crash of 1983, which was in large part caused by bad games. Something as buggy as Cyberpunk 2077 wouldn't have been allowed. Since then those checks have relaxed considerably, basically to a level of "if it runs, you can ship it". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983

AniseAbyss 5y ago
Gamers have proven that they will happily buy broken games so they can get away with it.
- okasaki 5y ago
  A game's function is to be entertaining, so if the customer is entertained then the product can't really be said to be broken.
sirl1on 5y ago
I don't necessarily think they only had higher QA standards back then. Back then you delivered the game on a physical medium, i.e. CD/DVD-ROM and could not expect the customer to be 24/7 online. If you did mess up your Golden Master or did not catch game breaking bugs, this could severely damage your revenue during your main sales window.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

As far as I can tell, there's really just one bug underlying most of the issues, and its that there is so much content in the game, that it messes up trying to load and unload objects. And a lot of it is failed attempts to adapt it for consoles.

totetsu 5y ago

A bug that makes penises stick out of female character pants on the customisation screen is quintessential 2020.