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Don't do this! Sleep tracking/optimisation and generally obsessing over sleep can trigger insomnia for a lot of people. I've had chronic insomnia for two years

Don't do this! Sleep tracking/optimisation and generally obsessing over sleep can trigger insomnia for a lot of people. I've had chronic insomnia for two years and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. If your sleep is good enough, leave it alone.

beebmam 5y ago
Agree; DO NOT make any changes to your sleep outside of medical advice. See a sleep doctor if you don't feel well rested when you wake up.
- Amasuriel 5y ago
  Unfortunately like many areas of medicine (at least in Canada), sleep specialists will do a sleep study, and unless your sleep is sues fall cleanly inside a condition they can treat (cpap for apnea for example) you are on your own except for some one sized fits all advice about sleep hygiene. If you don’t have restful sleep and don’t have apnea, and you have already tried the basics like melatonin, not using electronics before bed etc, you have few choice but to accept it or try to find your own answers.
abel_ 5y ago
Interesting! I hadn't heard this perspective before. Sounds like Goodharting [0] applies to sleep too [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
Noma 5y ago
It's ok to try to improve your sleep. But I agree that obsessing over optimizing your sleep can cause issues. I used to get sleep anxiety and would have trouble sleeping. Even sleeping pills didn't work. Luckily I made the realization pretty quickly. I still track but I don't obsess about getting X hours of sleep and such. If I lose some sleep, I know I can just make up for it. Being able to work at home does make this a lot easier, to be fair.
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  If you're insomnia stems from stress or anxiety, tracking it is really risky and will make it more than likely worse.
urthor 5y ago
What is important is having a fixed bedtime/wake time so your circadian rhythm settles in. How much sleep you can get in a night? Lucky dip, sometimes you just can't. Matthew Walker's book is the one I'd go to. Always find it weird how blog oriented a lot of information has become. If you want to know something... why not find the best researcher in the field and get their book.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > Always find it weird how blog oriented a lot of information has become. If you want to know something... why not find the best researcher in the field and get their book. Blogs are immediate and "free". Books take time and cost money. Think CliffsNotes (or some other equivalent) study guides. Why read the whole text and learn all the nuance and details, when you can just get straight to a particular hearline narrative
- cassianoleal 5y ago
  > Matthew Walker's book is the one I'd go to. Personal anecdote here. I've read his book. It's good, it's interesting, and it made me realise how much more I should try to get more and better sleep. I'm a night person. For months I tried each and every technique out there to move my sleep schedule back since I have to wake up in the morning against my natural rhythm. I started panicking and I went from 4-6h sleep per night + 8-10h on weekends to 2-4h during the week and about 6h on weekends. My whole life took a turn for the worst until I made the decision to stop the madness and go back to my previous, insufficient, sleep schedule. This is not ideal by a long shot. I'm permanently sleep deprived, but at least not to the point where I can't even function.
  - urthor 5y ago
    I mean isn't half of it that everyone has a chronotype? Shouldn't you just have a fixed, later bedtime. To maximize REM sleep etc?
    - cassianoleal 5y ago
      Yep, that's what I do now. I still need to wake up early (for me) in the morning though. There's no winning.
trabant00 5y ago
No way! Tools like meditation, working out, micro-dosing, sleep hacking, running, mindfulness, etc can only be beneficial, just like a hammer can only hit nails and never fingers. /s
sy7ar 5y ago
Login just to agree with this. I've been a chronic insomniac for almost 3 years, it happened not long after I started tracking my sleep and read Matthew's book.
slothtrop 5y ago
Tracking and optimization does not necessitate obsession. But if you are predisposed to it, the extra attention can lead people to slip into anxiety. The same idea would hold for those trying to lose weight. It's all CICO. But would you suggest someone not count calories for fear that this may raise anxiety? Or would you instead propose emotional/anxiety management strategies while pursuing this? This is why CBT-i is so effective for alleviating insomnia. The primary component is CBT, which is meant to curb anxiety, not unlike the sort that can manifest itself when applying interventions. That's not to say all so-called "sleep hygiene" is necessarily helpful. There's no universal standard for it and there's no evidence that tracking on a watch or whatever can improve sleep. But obviously some things do help.
bityard 5y ago
This is true ONLY if anxiety is a major trigger for poor sleep/insomnia. If so, then you need to treat your anxiety BEFORE trying to do any other sleep optimization experiments. This comment got a lot of attention but the fact is that there are almost infinite causes for poor sleep. Many of us would do very well to critically investigate those causes and work to address them if necessary or desired, just like troubleshooting any other kind of problem.

beebmam 5y ago

Agree; DO NOT make any changes to your sleep outside of medical advice. See a sleep doctor if you don't feel well rested when you wake up.

Amasuriel 5y ago
Unfortunately like many areas of medicine (at least in Canada), sleep specialists will do a sleep study, and unless your sleep is sues fall cleanly inside a condition they can treat (cpap for apnea for example) you are on your own except for some one sized fits all advice about sleep hygiene. If you don’t have restful sleep and don’t have apnea, and you have already tried the basics like melatonin, not using electronics before bed etc, you have few choice but to accept it or try to find your own answers.

abel_ 5y ago

Interesting! I hadn't heard this perspective before. Sounds like Goodharting [0] applies to sleep too [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Noma 5y ago

It's ok to try to improve your sleep. But I agree that obsessing over optimizing your sleep can cause issues. I used to get sleep anxiety and would have trouble sleeping. Even sleeping pills didn't work. Luckily I made the realization pretty quickly. I still track but I don't obsess about getting X hours of sleep and such. If I lose some sleep, I know I can just make up for it. Being able to work at home does make this a lot easier, to be fair.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago
If you're insomnia stems from stress or anxiety, tracking it is really risky and will make it more than likely worse.

urthor 5y ago

What is important is having a fixed bedtime/wake time so your circadian rhythm settles in. How much sleep you can get in a night? Lucky dip, sometimes you just can't. Matthew Walker's book is the one I'd go to. Always find it weird how blog oriented a lot of information has become. If you want to know something... why not find the best researcher in the field and get their book.

oarsinsync 5y ago
> Always find it weird how blog oriented a lot of information has become. If you want to know something... why not find the best researcher in the field and get their book. Blogs are immediate and "free". Books take time and cost money. Think CliffsNotes (or some other equivalent) study guides. Why read the whole text and learn all the nuance and details, when you can just get straight to a particular hearline narrative
cassianoleal 5y ago
> Matthew Walker's book is the one I'd go to. Personal anecdote here. I've read his book. It's good, it's interesting, and it made me realise how much more I should try to get more and better sleep. I'm a night person. For months I tried each and every technique out there to move my sleep schedule back since I have to wake up in the morning against my natural rhythm. I started panicking and I went from 4-6h sleep per night + 8-10h on weekends to 2-4h during the week and about 6h on weekends. My whole life took a turn for the worst until I made the decision to stop the madness and go back to my previous, insufficient, sleep schedule. This is not ideal by a long shot. I'm permanently sleep deprived, but at least not to the point where I can't even function.
- urthor 5y ago
  I mean isn't half of it that everyone has a chronotype? Shouldn't you just have a fixed, later bedtime. To maximize REM sleep etc?
  - cassianoleal 5y ago
    Yep, that's what I do now. I still need to wake up early (for me) in the morning though. There's no winning.

trabant00 5y ago

No way! Tools like meditation, working out, micro-dosing, sleep hacking, running, mindfulness, etc can only be beneficial, just like a hammer can only hit nails and never fingers. /s

sy7ar 5y ago

Login just to agree with this. I've been a chronic insomniac for almost 3 years, it happened not long after I started tracking my sleep and read Matthew's book.

slothtrop 5y ago

Tracking and optimization does not necessitate obsession. But if you are predisposed to it, the extra attention can lead people to slip into anxiety. The same idea would hold for those trying to lose weight. It's all CICO. But would you suggest someone not count calories for fear that this may raise anxiety? Or would you instead propose emotional/anxiety management strategies while pursuing this? This is why CBT-i is so effective for alleviating insomnia. The primary component is CBT, which is meant to curb anxiety, not unlike the sort that can manifest itself when applying interventions. That's not to say all so-called "sleep hygiene" is necessarily helpful. There's no universal standard for it and there's no evidence that tracking on a watch or whatever can improve sleep. But obviously some things do help.

bityard 5y ago

This is true ONLY if anxiety is a major trigger for poor sleep/insomnia. If so, then you need to treat your anxiety BEFORE trying to do any other sleep optimization experiments. This comment got a lot of attention but the fact is that there are almost infinite causes for poor sleep. Many of us would do very well to critically investigate those causes and work to address them if necessary or desired, just like troubleshooting any other kind of problem.